Casters on Casters: John Hodgman, Dan McCoy, Jesse Thorn, and Stuart Wellington

Dan McCoy

[0:00] Hello, welcome to the Max Fun Drive.

[0:03] Happy first day.

[0:05] I'm here.

[0:06] I'm Dan McCoy, and I'm with Stuart Wellington.

Stuart Wellington

[0:09] If you are a fan of the Flophouse,

[0:11] this is the best time for you to support your favorite show, us.

[0:17] And during this time, we're going to be putting out some bonus episodes.

[0:21] We're trying to put out some of our best episodes.

[0:23] In fact, we are releasing episodes where we are torturing each other

[0:27] with the worst movies we can make the others watch.

[0:30] It's going to be so much fun.

Dan McCoy

[0:32] And, you know, this is a little treat at the beginning of the drive.

[0:37] So we hope you enjoy it.

[0:39] Flophouse listeners, of course, are the best listeners on the planet.

[0:44] Thank you for supporting us and enjoy the show.

Stuart Wellington

[0:47] And if you can, head over to MaximumFun.org

[0:49] slash join to support the Flophouse.

S3

[0:53] Welcome to Casters on Casters.

[0:57] Conversations about the art and craft of podcasting

[1:00] with the masters of the microphone,

[1:04] the titans of talking,

[1:06] the rulers of remote recordings.

[1:10] On today's show,

[1:12] John Hodgman and Jesse Thorne,

[1:15] the Judge John Hodgman Show,

[1:18] and Dan McCoy and Stuart Wellington

[1:21] of The Flophouse.

[1:24] This is Casters on Casters.

John Hodgman

[1:27] So why don't we clap at the turn of the minute?

[1:33] Let's hold, hold, Dan, hold.

[1:34] Let's do it at 10 seconds past the minute.

[1:36] Okay.

[1:37] Give everyone a chance to get their clapping hands limbered.

[1:44] And let's make sure we leave that in.

[1:46] Because this is Casters on Casters.

[1:48] All about podcasting.

[1:50] The tips, the tricks, the techniques.

[1:53] I'm John Hodgman.

[1:54] Here's your host, founder of Maximum Fun,

[1:57] co-host and co-creator of the Judge John Hodgman Podcast,

[2:00] as well as co-host and co-creator of Jordan Jesse Goh,

[2:03] as well as creator and host of Bullseye,

[2:07] among many other endeavors.

[2:09] To introduce our other guests,

[2:10] it's Jesse Thorne.

Jesse Thorn

[2:12] Hi, John.

[2:13] Thank you for having me here on Casters on Casters.

[2:16] Glad to do it.

[2:16] I'm a caster myself,

[2:17] so I'm the perfect person to be on this show

[2:20] with you, a caster.

[2:21] And with us are two other casters.

John Hodgman

[2:23] You truly sound like AI right now.

[2:26] That was pretty amazing.

[2:28] Yeah, I could hear the sixth finger.

[2:30] I am so pumped to be here right now

[2:32] on Casters on Casters.

[2:34] Thank you for this opportunity.

Jesse Thorn

[2:36] And from the Flophouse Podcast,

[2:38] Dan McCoy and Stuart Wellington.

[2:40] Hi, Dan and Stu.

[2:41] Hey.

Dan McCoy

[2:42] Hey.

[2:43] Casters does sound cooler than podcaster,

[2:47] but it still sounds very uncool.

[2:49] Well, the idea is for it to sound like actors.

Jesse Thorn

[2:51] It's supposed to be like actors on actors.

[2:54] That's the idea.

[2:55] What are goals?

[2:56] So the MaxFun Drive is starting as this show drops.

[3:00] And so our goal for this

[3:02] is to give you guys a little peek behind the scenes

[3:06] about what we do, why we do it, how we do it.

[3:11] And we're doing it by convening a roundtable

[3:13] of probably the four greatest podcasters of all time.

[3:17] That'll be me, Stu, Dan, and John.

[3:22] I'm sitting in for Adam Carolla.

[3:24] Yeah, exactly.

John Hodgman

[3:26] The folks who are listening to this on the Flophouse feed,

[3:29] of course, know who Dan and Stu are from the Flophouse.

[3:33] But for those who might be listening

[3:34] on the Judge John Hodgman feed,

[3:36] tell us what the Flophouse is all about.

Dan McCoy

[3:40] We used to say we watch a bad movie

[3:42] and then we talk about it.

[3:44] And then over the years,

[3:45] I became increasingly guilty

[3:47] about feeling like we were

[3:49] not only one sort of parasitical,

[3:53] making fun of things,

[3:54] but also like I didn't want people to get the idea

[3:57] that we prejudge because honestly,

[3:59] sometimes we end up liking things we watch.

[4:01] So now we say it's a movie,

[4:04] a movie, a pod.

[4:05] Now we say it's a podcast

[4:07] where we watch something that was a critical

[4:10] or commercial flop and see what we think.

[4:14] And you heard Dan reset their listener,

John Hodgman

[4:17] which is a critical tool in podcasting.

[4:20] When you find yourself sort of just saying,

[4:23] now, hang on, I'm going to retake that.

[4:25] So you just heard Dan McCoy reset their critical tool

[4:28] in podcasting.

[4:29] When you lose your train of thought,

[4:30] you get it back again.

[4:31] You give a clean edit to the editor.

[4:33] In our case, Judge John Hodgman,

[4:35] it's AJ McKeon.

[4:36] Who does the editing over in your podcast?

Stuart Wellington

[4:38] So our producer and editor is Alex Smith,

[4:42] who goes by, he is also an entertainer.

[4:46] He is also an entertainer in his own right,

[4:49] who goes by the name Howell Doughty.

[4:51] He's a longtime friend,

[4:52] best man at my wedding, in fact.

Jesse Thorn

[4:55] And yeah, he's great.

[4:57] Our producer, Jennifer Marmer,

[4:58] is actually on the line.

[4:59] She's hosting this,

[5:01] the StreamYard recording we're using to record this.

Dan McCoy

[5:04] And I find her presence very comforting,

[5:05] even though I can't see her,

[5:06] just to know that she's there.

[5:08] Yeah, it is nice.

Jesse Thorn

[5:09] Nice to have Dan around always.

[5:12] Let me ask you guys a question.

[5:13] How do you pick a movie for the show?

Stuart Wellington

[5:17] We used to, in the early days,

[5:18] we would literally go to a video store.

[5:22] Yeah.

[5:23] Wow.

[5:23] Which is why we had kind of settled.

[5:25] What was the one on Flatbush Avenue, Dan?

Dan McCoy

[5:28] I mean, it was obviously long, long gone.

[5:33] It was in Clinton Hill.

[5:36] I don't remember the name of it.

[5:38] I just remember going in there

[5:39] and being an adult man renting Bratz the movie

[5:43] and thinking,

[5:44] I'm being put on a list.

Stuart Wellington

[5:47] Yeah, yeah.

[5:48] The watch list is in effect.

[5:50] But then, you know,

[5:51] at this point,

[5:52] we are able to use both our media literacy

[5:59] and our pop culture kind of finger on the pulse

[6:02] to figure out what people are talking about.

[6:06] But...

[6:06] And then we do it several months later.

[6:08] Yeah.

[6:09] And then there's also a little bit of crowdsourcing.

[6:11] You know, we'll have friends

[6:13] or friends who might work as critics

[6:15] or just listeners who will reach out to us

[6:18] and be like,

[6:19] you got to do this one.

[6:20] And then we check to see

[6:22] if it's as close to 90 minutes as possible.

Dan McCoy

[6:25] Yeah, that's the best.

[6:26] You know,

[6:27] this suggests a question to me

[6:29] and maybe Jennifer Marmer

[6:30] has more of a hand in this,

[6:32] but how do you know

[6:33] what a good conflict is

[6:36] to talk about on your show?

[6:37] How do you select that sort of thing?

John Hodgman

[6:39] Yeah, great question, Dan.

[6:40] I'm John Hodgman

[6:41] from the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

[6:43] And Jesse Thorne came to me

[6:46] less than 18 years ago,

[6:48] but not very many years less,

[6:50] saying,

[6:51] would you ever do a judge show

[6:53] as a segment on Jordan, Jesse Go?

[6:55] And I said, yes.

[6:57] And we had so much fun doing it

[6:59] that we created this podcast together

[7:00] where real people essentially call in

[7:03] with real, usually domestic disputes about,

[7:07] I don't know, Jesse, what?

[7:09] When we just, like,

[7:10] a guy wants to put a door in a duplex?

[7:11] Mostly people write in about

Jesse Thorn

[7:12] dishes-related matters.

[7:15] A lot of dish washing.

[7:16] So it's about 50%, yeah.

John Hodgman

[7:17] Style conflicts in homes, it's true.

[7:20] And then, you know,

[7:22] probably one of our most iconic episodes

[7:24] was the Bat Brothers episode,

[7:27] Two Brothers in a House in Kansas,

[7:28] wasn't it, Jesse?

Jesse Thorn

[7:29] Yeah, it was in Kansas.

[7:30] In fact, it was not very far

[7:32] from where my grandparents grew up,

[7:34] in Iola, Kansas.

John Hodgman

[7:35] And they had a bat problem in the house

[7:38] and one of them wanted to figure out a way

[7:40] to let the bats out of the house

[7:41] and the other one just wanted to smash them

[7:43] with a dictionary that he kept by his bed.

[7:45] And the question was,

[7:46] which is the Bat Brothers?

[7:47] He kept by the toilet, John.

Jesse Thorn

[7:48] They were getting into the bathroom.

[7:49] He kept the dictionary by the toilet.

[7:52] The Bat Room?

[7:54] Thank you.

[7:55] To me, the most distinctive part

[7:57] of the Bat Brothers

[7:57] and the part that I always emphasize

[7:59] in the telling

[8:00] and probably should not be emphasized

[8:02] is that they bought this house

[8:04] to save money.

[8:06] That in,

[8:07] to me,

[8:07] the bat,

[8:08] the bats getting in

[8:09] is less remarkable

[8:10] than that if you live

[8:12] in semi-rural Kansas,

[8:13] you can buy a house

[8:14] to save money.

[8:15] They bought this house

[8:16] for like $40,000

[8:17] or something.

John Hodgman

[8:19] At least that was true

[8:20] in 2011

[8:21] or 2010 or so

[8:23] when we heard that case.

[8:24] That was one of our

Stuart Wellington

[8:25] original cases.

[8:26] Now, when you mentioned

[8:27] Bat Brothers,

[8:28] I initially assumed

[8:29] you were talking about

[8:29] Mark McGuire

[8:30] and Jose Canseco,

[8:31] but those were

[8:31] the Bash Brothers.

[8:32] Yeah, that's the Bash Brothers.

Jesse Thorn

[8:34] So basically,

[8:35] people send in,

[8:37] people either fill out

[8:38] a form on the website

[8:39] or they send an email

[8:41] to podgman

[8:41] at maximumfund.org

[8:43] and John is actually

[8:45] the one who does

[8:46] the initial pass

[8:49] on that email inbox.

[8:50] Right, John?

John Hodgman

[8:52] Well, traditionally,

[8:53] that is true,

[8:54] although I will say

[8:55] that one of

[8:57] Jennifer Marmer's

[8:58] huge responsibilities

[9:00] and the one

[9:01] that she meets

[9:01] ably every week

[9:03] over and over again

[9:04] is finding

[9:05] and pre-interviewing

[9:06] the litigants,

[9:07] the potential litigants

[9:08] before they ever

[9:10] turn their microphones on

[9:11] so that we know

[9:12] that we're going to have

[9:13] a good and lively

[9:14] and fun conversation.

[9:17] And consequently,

[9:18] we've really never

[9:19] had a dud.

[9:20] But I would say

[9:21] that Jennifer,

[9:22] I've been meaning

[9:22] to ask Jennifer

[9:22] about this for a while

[9:23] because we're getting

[9:25] litigants through now

[9:26] over the past,

[9:27] oh, I would say

[9:27] six months or so

[9:28] that I don't ever

[9:29] remember laying eyes

[9:30] on the emails.

[9:31] So she's finding folks

[9:33] that I've never seen.

[9:35] So we've got to give

[9:35] her credit for that.

Jesse Thorn

[9:37] Yeah, she calls people

[9:38] and, you know,

[9:39] she probably talks.

[9:41] Random telephone numbers.

[9:42] She's down the docks,

Dan McCoy

[9:44] ruffling some feathers.

Jesse Thorn

[9:45] She goes to the bathroom,

[9:46] she gets the bat phone book,

[9:48] and she calls people

[9:50] and talks to them.

[9:52] And, you know,

[9:53] we're looking for

[9:53] different things.

[9:54] One of the things

[9:54] is just like,

[9:55] are they chill and fun?

[9:56] Are they comfortable

[9:57] talking to her

[9:58] just because sometimes

[9:59] people might be too nervous?

[10:02] And also,

[10:03] like,

[10:04] the nature of the dispute.

[10:05] Are there distinctive,

[10:07] interesting things

[10:07] about their dispute

[10:08] that might be fun

[10:09] to talk about?

[10:11] And, you know,

[10:12] other, like,

[10:13] more subtle things

[10:14] that listeners

[10:14] might not expect.

[10:16] I mean,

[10:17] the dispute

[10:18] has to be real.

[10:20] It has to be a real dispute

[10:21] between the people.

[10:22] Oh, yeah.

[10:24] But certain types

[10:25] of stakes

[10:26] freak listeners out.

[10:29] So we have to be careful

[10:30] to avoid those.

[10:31] So it is like a,

[10:32] it is a needle

[10:33] that has to be threaded

[10:34] by Jen and John.

[10:36] I don't really participate

[10:37] in this part of the show.

[10:39] which is to find people

[10:40] who actually care

[10:42] about the thing

[10:44] that is the dispute

[10:45] in question.

[10:46] Both of the parties

[10:48] are willing to come on

[10:49] and understand

[10:50] what they're getting

[10:51] themselves into.

[10:52] And also,

[10:54] that that,

[10:54] like,

[10:55] that conflict

[10:56] is something

[10:58] that is manageable

[10:59] within the tone

[11:00] of the show.

[11:00] Right?

[11:01] Yeah,

[11:01] it is a cozy show.

Dan McCoy

[11:02] I would be very perturbed

[11:03] if I listen to it

[11:04] and people are genuinely

[11:05] mad at one another.

[11:07] I sometimes,

Jesse Thorn

[11:08] like,

[11:08] when I'm explaining it

[11:09] to a stranger,

[11:11] like,

[11:11] the easy thing to say

[11:12] is,

[11:12] oh,

[11:12] it's like Judge Judy

[11:13] or something

[11:14] because formatically

[11:15] it is like Judge Judy.

[11:17] Uh-huh.

[11:17] Right?

[11:18] Then I say,

[11:18] but it's usually

[11:19] between people

[11:20] that love each other

[11:21] and want to resolve

Dan McCoy

[11:23] their conflict

[11:24] amicably.

[11:25] And a judge

[11:26] who's interested

[11:26] in not just shouting

[11:27] at the people

[11:28] but understanding them.

[11:30] I think that's unfair.

Stuart Wellington

[11:31] Um,

[11:31] uh,

[11:32] so that brings up

[11:33] an interesting question.

[11:34] I've always wondered,

[11:35] do you model yourself

[11:37] after a specific TV judge

[11:39] or is there a TV judge

[11:40] that you aspire to be like?

[11:42] Or a real life judge

[11:43] that you've appeared before?

[11:45] Yes,

[11:45] thank you.

John Hodgman

[11:47] Well,

[11:47] my,

[11:48] my first and foremost

[11:49] inspiration is

[11:50] Judge Melitta Bullinger,

[11:53] uh,

[11:53] Justice of the Peace

[11:54] in Cold Spring,

[11:55] New York,

[11:55] who married my wife

[11:56] and I.

[11:57] Oh,

[11:57] my wife is a whole

[11:58] union.

[11:58] Oh,

[11:59] that's cute.

[11:59] I don't,

[12:00] I don't remember her at all

[12:00] because I'm really surprised

[12:01] I remember her name.

[12:02] She did a great job.

[12:03] We're legally married,

[12:04] so good job.

[12:06] No complaints.

[12:07] Yeah.

[12:08] Honestly,

[12:08] there's,

[12:08] there's a bit

[12:09] where I,

[12:10] where I always say,

[12:11] uh,

[12:12] I think I've heard

[12:13] everything I need

[12:13] to make my decision.

[12:14] I'm going to,

[12:14] in my chambers,

[12:15] I'll be back

[12:15] in a moment

[12:15] with my verdict,

[12:16] which is a direct

[12:18] ripoff of Judge Wapner.

[12:19] I remember watching

[12:21] the People's Court

[12:22] as a kid

[12:22] and loving him

[12:24] just being like,

[12:24] yeah,

[12:24] I've heard enough,

[12:25] bye.

[12:25] I'm just like,

[12:26] whoop.

[12:27] And then we go away.

Jesse Thorn

[12:28] We have a specific

[12:30] Judge Hero,

[12:31] right?

[12:31] So like Judge Wapner,

[12:32] whatever,

[12:33] our specific Judge Hero

[12:34] is actually a Judge

[12:35] John Hodgman listener

[12:36] who is a real judge,

[12:39] Raquel Montoya Lewis.

[12:40] That's right.

[12:41] She is a judge

[12:42] on the Washington State

[12:43] Supreme Court

[12:44] and when she was

[12:46] appointed to the

[12:47] Washington State

[12:47] Supreme Court

[12:48] and she is,

[12:49] among other things,

[12:50] the first native person

[12:51] on the Washington State

[12:53] Supreme Court,

[12:53] one of the first

[12:54] state Supreme Court

[12:55] justices who is a

[12:56] native person

[12:57] in the entire country.

[12:58] Judge Montoya Lewis

[13:00] sent us an email

[13:01] because we had

[13:02] stopped printing

[13:03] our settled law

[13:05] poster

[13:05] and said,

[13:07] I want one

[13:08] for my chambers.

[13:09] Can you make

[13:10] another one for me?

[13:12] And we said,

[13:12] yes,

[13:13] we can,

[13:13] at the very least,

[13:14] we can send you the file.

[13:15] You can go down

[13:15] to Kinko's.

[13:18] And we got to meet

[13:19] Judge Montoya Lewis

[13:20] when we did a show

[13:21] in Washington State.

[13:22] She came and actually

[13:23] guested on the show

[13:24] and it was just,

[13:25] it's totally amazing

[13:26] to think of

[13:28] a real life,

[13:30] and she's incredibly

[13:31] principled

[13:32] and caring justice

[13:35] who really

[13:36] gives a hoot

[13:38] about making the law

[13:39] work for human beings.

[13:40] And it is incredible

[13:42] to think that

[13:42] our weird,

[13:43] dumb show

[13:44] would be something

[13:45] that a person

[13:46] who actually does this

[13:47] for a living

[13:48] treasures,

[13:49] right?

[13:49] Like,

[13:50] the idea that

[13:50] a real judge

[13:51] actually likes us

[13:52] is mind-bending

[13:54] and also that

[13:55] she totally rules.

John Hodgman

[13:57] It's not just

[13:58] that she does it

[13:58] for a living,

[13:59] but she went

[13:59] through years

[14:01] of presumably

[14:01] expensive schooling,

[14:02] made a lot of sacrifices,

[14:04] had to break

[14:05] a lot of barriers

[14:06] in the legal profession

[14:08] to get where she is

[14:10] as opposed to me,

[14:11] which is,

[14:11] I'm just a white guy.

[14:12] I was like,

[14:12] yeah,

[14:12] I'm a judge now.

Jesse Thorn

[14:17] One of the things

[14:18] when I listen

[14:19] to the Flophouse

[14:20] that I always appreciate

[14:21] is,

[14:22] you know,

[14:23] obviously,

[14:24] Dan and Elliot

[14:25] have worked

[14:26] in the entertainment

[14:27] industry

[14:27] for a very long time

[14:29] and,

[14:30] Stu,

[14:31] you went to college

[14:32] with Dan.

[14:34] Credentials.

[14:35] They call them

[14:36] credentials.

[14:38] But,

[14:38] like,

[14:38] one of the things

[14:39] about the Flophouse

[14:40] is that it really

[14:41] seems to understand

[14:42] a fundamental thing

[14:44] about filmmaking

[14:45] in particular,

[14:46] but the entertainment

[14:47] industry in general,

[14:48] which is that

[14:50] every film,

[14:52] like,

[14:52] every notable film

[14:54] is made by

[14:56] 200 or 300

[14:59] hyper-competent people

[15:01] that,

[15:02] you know,

[15:02] you can't be on a set.

[15:04] Like,

[15:04] the times that I've been

[15:05] on a set,

[15:06] the thing that awes me

[15:07] is how good at their job

[15:08] every single person is

[15:09] because if anyone

[15:11] messes up,

[15:12] it messes everyone

[15:13] else up,

[15:13] right?

[15:14] And that there are

[15:16] all these super-competent

[15:17] people working on a film

[15:19] and sometimes

[15:20] it comes out bad.

[15:21] And that's just

[15:23] the nature of it

[15:24] because there's

[15:25] so many moving parts.

[15:26] It's so hard

[15:28] to make it come out good.

[15:30] Like,

[15:30] if it comes out good,

[15:31] that's just,

[15:32] like,

[15:32] an extraordinary

[15:33] confluence of skill,

[15:34] good luck,

[15:35] good ideas,

[15:36] whatever,

[15:37] whatever.

[15:38] And your show

[15:39] is pretty generous

[15:40] about that.

[15:40] Like,

[15:41] I feel like it

[15:42] understands this truth

[15:44] that everybody

[15:44] who's worked

[15:45] in the entertainment

[15:45] industry has worked

[15:46] on a lot of bad things

[15:47] because sometimes

[15:48] it just doesn't work out.

John Hodgman

[15:50] Yeah,

[15:50] no one wants to do

[15:51] a bad job.

[15:52] And you,

[15:53] sometimes you just

Dan McCoy

[15:53] gotta have work.

[15:54] Like,

[15:54] these are people

[15:55] who work for a living

[15:57] and I think that it's,

[15:59] it kind of frustrates me

[16:00] sometimes that I think

[16:02] people who have had

[16:03] no experience of it

[16:04] treat it as if

[16:05] every decision

[16:06] is an artistic one

[16:07] when a lot of the decisions

[16:09] are like,

[16:10] I haven't worked for a while,

[16:11] I need my health insurance

[16:13] or whatever.

[16:14] but I appreciate

[16:15] that you say that.

[16:17] Honestly,

[16:17] I'd do anything

[16:18] to be in a bad movie.

[16:19] Yeah.

[16:20] Yeah.

Jesse Thorn

[16:22] That's all.

[16:22] Well,

[16:23] anytime I hear people

[16:24] come,

[16:24] like,

[16:24] how could they do that?

[16:25] I'm like,

[16:26] I remember thinking

[16:27] very vividly

[16:28] in like 2003

[16:29] or something like that,

[16:31] there was this

[16:32] controversy

[16:33] in comedy nerd

[16:35] internet circles

[16:36] about the hyper-principled

[16:38] David Cross

[16:39] being in an

[16:40] Alvin and the Chipmunks sequel.

[16:42] And it was like,

[16:43] if you were offered

[16:44] a part in the

[16:45] Alvin and the Chipmunks movie,

[16:46] would you say no?

[16:47] Like,

[16:48] I would,

[16:48] I would be like,

[16:49] I'll buy my own

[16:50] plane ticket.

[16:51] Like,

[16:51] that's a great thing.

[16:52] Sure.

[16:53] What am I?

[16:53] I get to meet the Chipmunks.

John Hodgman

[16:55] I would have myself

[16:56] surgically transformed

[16:58] into a Chipmunk

[16:59] Tusk style

[17:00] in order to be in the movie.

[17:01] I'm like,

[17:01] turning my hat backwards

Jesse Thorn

[17:02] and bagging up my pants

[17:03] so that I can be

[17:04] a hip-hop Chipmunk.

[17:06] I want to mention,

[17:07] by the way,

[17:08] it is the first day

[17:09] of the MaxFun drive.

[17:11] So,

[17:11] if you're a fan

[17:12] of the Flophouse

[17:13] or you're a fan

[17:14] of Judge John Hodgman,

[17:15] we are supported

[17:17] by your direct support.

[17:19] That is like,

[17:19] what makes

[17:20] our work possible.

[17:21] So,

[17:22] please go to

[17:22] MaximumFun.org

[17:23] slash join.

[17:24] We want to have

[17:25] a big start

[17:25] to the MaxFun drive.

[17:27] We've got so much stuff

[17:28] for the next two weeks planned.

[17:30] It's going to be

[17:31] such a great time.

[17:32] John and I

[17:32] are streaming every day.

[17:33] We're doing a live show

[17:35] at the end of the drive

[17:36] that is streaming free

[17:37] to everyone

[17:38] where we're going to

[17:38] settle disputes

[17:39] between MaxFun hosts.

[17:41] It's going to be

[17:42] jam-packed

[17:42] with great stuff.

[17:43] And we'll have

[17:44] regular episodes

[17:44] for you during this time

[17:45] as well.

[17:46] But MaximumFun.org

[17:48] slash join

[17:49] is the place to go

[17:49] to become a member

[17:50] of MaximumFun.

[17:51] And that is your

[17:53] direct support

[17:54] for our show.

[17:56] Like,

[17:56] I think sometimes

[17:57] people are like,

[17:59] why am I supporting

[18:00] MaximumFun

[18:01] when I want to support

[18:02] my favorite guys?

[18:04] I like that impression.

[18:06] Thank you.

[18:06] They do too.

[18:07] You're supporting,

[18:07] like,

[18:08] I really can't emphasize enough,

[18:09] you are supporting us

[18:10] directly.

[18:11] Like,

[18:12] MaximumFun

[18:13] supports our work.

[18:16] I'm not the owner

[18:17] of MaximumFun anymore.

[18:18] I'm a member

[18:18] of the co-op,

[18:19] so I'm technically

[18:20] an owner,

[18:21] but I'm not the owner

[18:22] of MaximumFun anymore.

[18:23] They support our work,

[18:25] but when you support,

[18:26] when you go to

[18:28] slash join

[18:29] and join,

[18:30] you are directly

[18:31] supporting the podcasts

[18:33] that you listen to.

[18:34] So please go to

[18:36] slash join.

John Hodgman

[18:37] Podcasting can be

[18:38] a lonely job,

[18:40] even if you're talking

[18:40] to your friends

[18:42] all the time.

[18:43] It's really true.

[18:44] It's,

[18:44] and,

[18:45] you know,

[18:45] having,

[18:46] not only having

[18:47] the organizational

[18:49] and logistical

[18:50] and producorial

[18:51] support that

[18:52] MaximumFun offers,

[18:53] there's,

[18:53] it's just a bunch

[18:54] of nice people.

[18:56] It's a collective.

[18:57] You remember how

[18:57] the monkeys all

[18:58] lived in one house?

[19:00] You know what I mean?

[19:01] Well,

[19:01] that's like MaximumFun.

[19:02] There's a fire pole

[19:03] at MaximumFun HQ.

Stuart Wellington

[19:05] I,

[19:06] I mean,

[19:06] I feel like I've always

[19:07] been drawn to

[19:08] communities

[19:09] and like being

[19:10] part of building

[19:11] a community,

[19:11] whether it's

[19:12] like by opening

[19:13] like neighborhood bars

[19:15] or in my

[19:16] like Warhammer

[19:17] hobby.

[19:18] But,

[19:19] um,

[19:20] that was one of

[19:20] the things that I

[19:21] really,

[19:21] I was really blown

[19:22] away at how

[19:23] welcoming the

[19:24] MaximumFun community

[19:24] was when we joined

[19:26] and how easy it was

[19:28] for us to integrate

[19:29] and get involved

[19:30] with people.

[19:31] And it's,

[19:32] it's been really,

[19:32] it's just been really

[19:33] cool.

[19:34] And it was,

[19:35] um,

[19:35] it was also,

[19:36] it felt like a really

[19:37] easy way for me to

[19:39] get more direct

[19:39] feedback on the show,

[19:41] uh,

[19:42] about the show,

[19:42] which was really cool.

[19:43] And everybody was

[19:44] really like thoughtful

[19:45] and welcoming.

[19:46] It was,

[19:47] it's great.

Jesse Thorn

[19:47] Wait,

[19:48] you feel good about

[19:49] getting feedback about

[19:50] the show?

Stuart Wellington

[19:52] I mean,

[19:53] that's the thing,

[19:53] like when we started

[19:54] doing the show,

[19:55] it was so long ago

[19:56] and I feel like I,

[19:58] you know,

[19:59] I,

[19:59] I came from the

[20:00] Midwest and when I

[20:01] moved to New York,

[20:02] I worked in a hobby

[20:03] store around teenage

[20:05] boys.

[20:05] So I feel like I

[20:07] had a relatively

[20:08] limited worldview.

[20:09] And one of the

[20:10] things about doing

[20:11] the show was that

[20:12] there was those

[20:13] moments where

[20:14] I realized

[20:15] we would get

[20:16] feedback from

[20:17] listeners that are

[20:18] not teenage boys

[20:19] or men just like

[20:20] me.

[20:21] And I was like,

[20:22] oh,

[20:22] wow,

[20:23] like there's a

[20:24] whole world out

[20:25] there.

[20:25] And it,

[20:26] and everybody was

[20:26] so,

[20:27] uh,

[20:28] like kind of

[20:28] gracious and,

[20:30] and kind with

[20:31] their feedback.

[20:32] And it,

[20:33] I don't know,

[20:34] like it helped me

[20:35] grow as a person.

[20:36] Well,

[20:37] that's,

[20:37] yeah,

Dan McCoy

[20:37] I,

[20:38] I've met so

[20:39] many different

[20:40] types of people

[20:40] through doing

[20:42] the show in a

[20:43] way that like

[20:44] really like expands

[20:46] my worldview in a

[20:48] healthy way,

[20:49] I think.

[20:49] And also helped

[20:51] me learn how

[20:52] to like interact

[20:55] and be gracious

[20:56] with people just

[20:57] in the,

[20:58] in terms of like,

[20:59] I'm a neurodivergent

[21:01] guy raised by a

[21:03] neurodivergent

[21:04] brother in part.

[21:05] you know,

[21:05] I've been like

[21:07] kind of a,

[21:07] a shy guy who

[21:09] is awkward around

[21:10] new people and

[21:11] whose warmth

[21:12] reveals itself

[21:13] slowly.

[21:15] Uh,

[21:16] and I think

[21:18] that learning

[21:19] how to like be

[21:20] out there in

[21:21] the world and,

[21:22] uh,

[21:23] interact with,

[21:24] uh,

[21:24] new people who

[21:25] may know me,

[21:26] but I don't

[21:26] know them has

[21:27] been very,

[21:27] uh,

[21:29] wonderful and

[21:29] healthy for me.

[21:31] It actually,

[21:32] like that suggested

[21:32] a question.

[21:33] I don't know,

[21:34] uh,

[21:34] how much time

[21:35] we have,

[21:36] but I wanted

[21:36] to ask you guys

[21:37] your show involves.

[21:39] Well,

[21:39] we're out of time,

John Hodgman

[21:40] Dan.

[21:40] Thank you.

[21:41] This is one of

[21:41] those things that

[21:42] happens in podcasts

[21:43] where you just

[21:43] hit a hard post.

[21:45] No,

[21:45] what was your

[21:45] question?

[21:46] Yeah,

Jesse Thorn

[21:46] I see.

[21:46] I'm getting

[21:47] feedback from

[21:47] Jennifer here.

[21:48] She says,

[21:49] Dan is talking,

[21:50] wrap it up.

Stuart Wellington

[21:53] Yeah,

[21:54] she's just

[21:54] riding the cough

[21:55] button the whole

[21:56] time.

[21:58] I,

[21:58] I love,

[21:59] I love talking

Dan McCoy

[22:03] to our listeners.

[22:03] I would talk to a

[22:04] max fun listener

[22:05] any day of the

[22:07] week.

[22:07] I'm so glad when

[22:08] anyone talks to me

[22:09] about the show

[22:10] out in like the

[22:11] real world.

[22:13] Uh,

[22:14] however,

[22:14] as I suggested,

[22:15] maybe I'm not like

[22:16] the most natural

[22:16] with strangers

[22:18] and you have a

[22:19] show built around

[22:20] interacting with

[22:21] new people every

[22:22] week.

[22:23] How does one do

[22:24] that?

John Hodgman

[22:26] explain.

[22:27] I mean,

[22:28] I think that

[22:29] obviously we

[22:30] mentioned that

[22:30] Jennifer sort

[22:31] of does the

[22:32] cold calling

[22:33] first.

[22:33] So,

[22:34] you know,

[22:36] we feel quite

[22:37] comfortable that

[22:37] the people we're

[22:38] going to meet

[22:38] are fun and

[22:39] interesting and

[22:40] enjoyable,

[22:41] but also we

[22:43] feel quite

[22:43] comfortable because

[22:44] they usually tend

[22:45] to be listeners

[22:46] to the show.

[22:46] And like your

[22:48] experience,

[22:49] I like the

[22:50] listeners to the

[22:51] show.

[22:51] Like,

[22:51] you know,

[22:52] as someone who

[22:52] has had my

[22:54] mug plastered

[22:55] on various TV

[22:56] shows,

[22:56] and small

[22:57] movies and so

[22:58] forth,

[22:59] I always enjoy

[22:59] when someone

[23:00] comes up and

[23:00] goes,

[23:01] loved you in

[23:02] that one scene

[23:03] in Pitch

[23:03] Perfect 2,

[23:04] which happened,

[23:05] by the way,

[23:05] at the optometrist

[23:06] the other day.

[23:07] Oh,

[23:07] wow.

[23:08] That was exciting,

[23:09] you know what I

[23:09] mean?

[23:10] But I don't want

[23:10] to sit and have

[23:11] a conversation

[23:12] with somebody.

[23:13] And I'm not

[23:14] making a promise

[23:14] to MaxFun

[23:15] listeners that I'm

[23:16] going to sit and

[23:17] have a conversation

[23:17] with you every

[23:18] time.

[23:19] But if when

[23:20] someone comes up

[23:20] to me and says

[23:20] like,

[23:21] I'm a MaxFun

[23:22] member,

[23:23] I'm like,

[23:23] oh,

[23:23] hey,

[23:24] thank you.

[23:25] I think we have

[23:25] something in

[23:26] common here

[23:26] and that we

[23:27] both support

[23:28] this enterprise

[23:28] that we believe

[23:29] in.

[23:29] And also,

[23:30] I admire your

[23:31] taste.

[23:32] And I want to

[23:32] echo something

[23:33] that I think

[23:34] you said,

[23:34] Stu,

[23:35] which is that

[23:35] like meeting

[23:36] all these people

[23:37] both on the

[23:38] podcast and

[23:39] sort of in

[23:40] the world of

[23:40] the listenership

[23:41] has made me

[23:42] a much better

[23:42] person,

[23:43] for sure.

[23:44] I mean,

[23:45] my knowledge

[23:47] of the

[23:48] broader way

[23:49] that people

[23:50] live is so

[23:51] much more

[23:52] enhanced.

[23:53] And my

[23:54] wife is a

[23:55] whole human

[23:55] being in

[23:55] her own

[23:55] right,

[23:56] was like,

[23:56] you're a

[23:56] much better

[23:57] husband now

[23:57] than you

[23:58] were.

[23:58] Not that I

[23:59] was bad,

[24:00] but,

[24:00] you know,

[24:01] the listening

[24:02] and the

[24:03] understanding

[24:04] and the

[24:04] empathy that

[24:05] the litigants

[24:06] show each

[24:07] other and

[24:07] the listeners

[24:08] show to us

[24:09] have really,

[24:10] I mean,

[24:10] if you go back

[24:11] and listen

[24:11] to some

[24:11] of those

[24:11] early episodes,

[24:12] I'm really

[24:13] quite a

[24:14] judgy asshole.

[24:16] And I'm

[24:16] much less so

[24:17] now.

[24:17] And I was

[24:17] encouraging,

[24:18] like,

[24:18] I thought that

Jesse Thorn

[24:19] was the

[24:19] comedy premise

[24:20] of the show.

[24:20] Like,

[24:20] I want to be

[24:20] clear,

[24:21] like,

[24:22] as the guy

[24:23] who thought

[24:23] up John

[24:24] as a judge,

[24:24] I thought

[24:25] it was funny

[24:25] for John

[24:26] to be a

[24:27] judgy asshole

[24:28] on the show

[24:28] and encouraged

[24:29] it for

[24:31] comedy.

[24:31] John's

Dan McCoy

[24:32] daily show

[24:32] persona was

[24:33] also a little

[24:33] more aggressive,

[24:34] so it made

[24:35] sense,

[24:35] you know,

[24:35] I think,

[24:36] sort of,

[24:37] he'd done

[24:37] that before

[24:38] where he was

[24:39] bedeviling

Jesse Thorn

[24:41] I'll say

[24:41] something that's

[24:43] a real comfort

[24:43] to me is

[24:44] obviously,

[24:45] unlike you guys,

[24:46] I work in

[24:47] the office

[24:48] at MaxFun.

[24:49] Like,

[24:49] I'm there

[24:50] close to

[24:52] every day,

[24:53] right?

[24:54] And I

[24:55] look around

[24:56] at the

[24:57] two dozen-ish

[24:57] people that

[24:58] work there,

[24:59] many of whom

[25:00] I hired,

[25:00] right,

[25:01] when I was

[25:01] still the

[25:02] owner of

[25:02] the company.

[25:04] And when

[25:04] you were

[25:04] still 12

[25:05] years old

[25:06] and they

[25:06] were babies.

[25:07] Yeah.

[25:09] I, like,

[25:09] look,

[25:10] I look around

[25:10] at these

[25:11] people,

[25:11] I'm, like,

[25:13] I'm so

[25:14] lucky to

[25:14] work with

[25:15] these, like,

[25:16] lovely,

[25:16] wonderful people

[25:17] who work

[25:18] here because

[25:19] they care

[25:20] about touching

[25:21] people's lives.

[25:22] Like,

[25:22] there's not

[25:23] a cynical,

[25:25] you know,

[25:27] let's exploit

[25:28] people person

[25:28] in the entire

[25:29] MaxFun office

[25:30] of dozens of

[25:31] people.

[25:32] like,

[25:32] I get

[25:33] frustrated

[25:33] about things

[25:34] in my

[25:34] office because

[25:35] I work in

[25:36] an office and

[25:36] I'm a human

[25:37] being.

[25:38] But, like,

[25:39] I also, like,

[25:40] find myself

[25:41] thinking, like,

[25:41] if I'm

[25:42] frustrated with

[25:42] something or

[25:43] something,

[25:43] whatever,

[25:44] just normal

[25:44] office stuff,

[25:45] I think,

[25:46] like,

[25:47] oh, but

[25:47] how great

[25:49] is that

[25:50] person that

[25:50] I'm frustrated

[25:51] with?

[25:52] Like, I love

[25:52] them all,

[25:53] you know?

[25:54] And so I

[25:55] know that

[25:56] is a great

[25:57] comfort to

[25:57] me that,

[25:58] like,

[25:58] that I have

[26:00] this, that I'm,

[26:01] like, part of

[26:02] this group of

[26:02] people who are,

[26:04] both the

[26:04] podcasters and

[26:05] the behind-the-scenes

[26:05] people who are

[26:07] so dedicated to

[26:08] making something

[26:09] special to touch

[26:10] people's lives,

[26:11] even if it's

[26:11] something dumb.

John Hodgman

[26:12] Jesse, I'm

[26:13] getting word now

[26:13] from our

[26:14] producer,

[26:15] Jennifer Marmer,

[26:16] and an employee

[26:17] owner of

[26:18] Maximum Fun,

[26:19] that we're,

[26:21] we need to wrap

[26:22] it up soon,

[26:22] but she has some

[26:23] pickups for us.

[26:24] It's a little

[26:24] behind-the-scenes,

[26:26] casters on

[26:27] casters exclusive.

[26:28] We're going to do

[26:29] some pickups,

[26:30] which is where we

[26:31] go back and

[26:31] we say something

[26:33] again, but

[26:35] better, or maybe

[26:36] answer a question

[26:36] we didn't answer

[26:37] before.

Jesse Thorn

[26:37] Now that our

[26:38] open, bleeding

[26:40] hearts are on

[26:40] display for

[26:41] everyone,

[26:43] we're out of

[26:44] time, so I

[26:46] will, one more

[26:47] time, say,

[26:48] please join

[26:48] Maximum Fun,

[26:50] slash join, go to

[26:51] MaximumFun.org and

[26:52] check out all the

[26:53] cool stuff that's

[26:54] happening over the

[26:54] next couple of

[26:55] weeks between

[26:56] April 20th and

[26:57] May 1st for the

[26:58] MaxFun drive,

[26:59] because we're

[27:00] all doing really

[27:01] cool stuff every

[27:02] day and making

[27:03] special episodes and

[27:04] all kinds of cool

[27:06] stuff in gratitude to

[27:07] you for supporting

[27:08] us.

[27:08] And if you're not

[27:09] yet a supporter or

[27:09] you want to

[27:10] increase your

[27:10] support, go to

[27:12] slash join.

[27:14] Dan and Stu, thank

[27:15] you for talking with

[27:17] us.

[27:17] We really appreciate

[27:18] it.

John Hodgman

[27:19] And the name of

[27:20] their podcast is

[27:21] what again?

[27:22] Don't remember.

[27:23] Right.

[27:23] The Flophouse

[27:24] podcast, baby.

[27:26] Flophouse podcast.

[27:27] Get it.

[27:28] Get it where you

[27:28] get your podcasts and

[27:30] follow Maximum Fun

[27:32] on YouTube and hit

[27:33] that subscribe and

[27:34] bell and you'll be

[27:35] alerted to all of the

[27:37] fun stuff that we're

[27:38] doing during the

[27:38] MaxFun drive as

[27:39] well.

[27:41] slash join.

[27:42] What a pleasure to

[27:43] hang out with my

[27:43] friends, our

[27:44] friends.

Stuart Wellington

[27:45] And I want to

[27:46] thank you guys for

[27:47] kind of taking the

[27:47] reins and hosting

[27:48] this.

[27:49] And John and

[27:50] Jesse, what is

[27:50] your show?

[27:52] Again, don't

[27:53] remember.

John Hodgman

[27:54] Jesse and I co-created

[27:55] and co-host the

[27:56] Judge John Hodgman

[27:57] podcast available

[27:58] every Wednesday on

[27:59] Maximum Fun and

[28:01] full video episodes

[28:02] are available on

[28:03] YouTube at Judge

[28:03] John Hodgman

[28:04] pod where all of

[28:06] our live streaming

[28:06] will be happening

[28:07] as well.

[28:08] Hit that subscribe

[28:08] and like button.

[28:09] But most important,

[28:10] today is the first

[28:11] day of the MaxFun

[28:12] drive.

[28:12] You've heard what

[28:13] it means to us as

[28:14] podcasters, what

[28:15] you mean to us as

[28:17] podcasters.

[28:18] If you're not

[28:19] already a member,

[28:20] I hope you will now

[28:21] go to MaximumFun.org

[28:22] slash join right

[28:23] now and become a

[28:25] member or if you're

[28:26] already a member and

[28:27] you're able to, you

[28:28] can boost or upgrade

[28:29] your membership.

[28:30] Every little bit

[28:31] helps to literally

[28:32] keep the lights on

[28:33] and support us and

[28:35] keep us going.

[28:36] If it weren't for

[28:36] you, we'd have to

[28:37] stop.

[28:37] So thank you.

[28:38] slash join.

Jesse Thorn

[28:39] Dan, it's two.

[28:40] Thanks for being our

[28:41] friend.

[28:41] We love you guys.

[28:42] Oh, thanks.

[28:43] We love you guys.

[28:44] MaximumFun.

Dan McCoy

[28:55] A worker-owned

[28:56] network of artist-owned

S6

[28:58] shows supported

[28:59] directly by you.

Casters on Casters: John Hodgman, Dan McCoy, Jesse Thorn, and Stuart Wellington

Transcript

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