FH Mini #23 - Flop Etiquette

Stuart Wellington

[0:00] Is that Doc Hollywood?

[0:02] Are you talking about Doc Hollywood?

Elliott Kalan

[0:04] Yeah, I'm talking about For Love or Money.

Stuart Wellington

[0:06] Are you talking about the plot of the TV show Banshee?

Elliott Kalan

[0:12] I don't know.

[0:14] I thought that was about Sean Cassidy, the X-Man member who can scream real loud.

Stuart Wellington

[0:20] If only, Elliot, if only.

[0:22] No, it's a show about a criminal who gets out of jail,

[0:27] and he goes to a small town in Pennsylvania where he is at a bar,

[0:31] and the new sheriff who just arrived in town gets killed,

[0:34] so he becomes the new sheriff.

[0:36] And this is set in modern times,

[0:38] and the main criminal mastermind is a former Amish guy.

Elliott Kalan

[0:43] A former Amish guy?

Stuart Wellington

[0:45] Yeah, he's no longer an Amish person.

[0:49] But he's still, like, badass.

[0:52] Like, imagine, like, the most badass Amish guy.

[0:54] Yeah, sure, sure.

[0:55] Did you guys ever see?

S3

[0:57] That documentary Devil's Candy, which is about Rum Springa and the Amish people?

[1:02] I've heard of it, but I haven't seen it.

[1:04] I used to work at a video store, and it had maybe the best cover to grab you in a video store ever,

[1:10] which was an Amish girl in the back of a carriage smoking crack.

[1:14] Oh, that's pretty good.

[1:16] Because it's like they go super hard in Rum Springa,

[1:18] and then, you know, they do a bunch of drugs and have sex,

[1:21] and, you know, and they were there for it.

[1:23] But there's a whole ex-Amish criminal contingent who sells them the drugs.

[1:28] Like in this TV show Banshee that I think he's talking about.

Elliott Kalan

[1:32] Like in Banshee.

[1:32] Hey, guys, let's start this episode.

Stuart Wellington

[1:35] Star?

[1:36] This episode, are you referring to Anthony Star,

[1:38] the star of Banshee, the TV show?

[1:40] It's exactly what I'm referring to.

Elliott Kalan

[1:46] Hey, everybody, welcome to the Flophouse Mini.

[1:48] That's the off-week episodes of the Flophouse,

[1:50] where we're not stuck talking about some dumb movie that we watched,

[1:55] but instead can talk about whatever we want.

[1:57] Hi, my name's Elliot Kalin.

[1:58] Who's with me tonight?

Dan McCoy

[2:00] Me, Dan McCoy, I guess.

Stuart Wellington

[2:02] Hey, and it's me, Stuart, number one podcast Banshee fan, apparently.

Elliott Kalan

[2:06] Yeah, the only one of us who knows the plot and stars of Banshee.

[2:09] And we're joined today by a very special guest.

[2:11] We're joined by Joel Church-Cooper.

[2:13] Yes, you know him.

[2:14] He's the creator of the IFC series Brockmire.

[2:16] He's been a writer for Hulu's Future Man.

[2:18] Thank you for being with us today, Joel.

S3

[2:20] Guys, it's a real pleasure.

[2:22] You know, first time, long time.

[2:23] And, you know, I just, I love being a part of the world.

[2:27] I love making this parasocial relationship into a social relationship.

Elliott Kalan

[2:32] Yeah, it's been one-sided for too long.

[2:34] Now, by first time, long time, you mean first time podcast guest,

[2:37] long time Banshee fan.

[2:38] Yes.

[2:38] We were talking about Banshee before the show or during the show,

[2:42] if Jordan leaves that stuff in.

[2:44] We'll see.

Stuart Wellington

[2:45] Uh-huh.

[2:45] Maybe she'll just keep that in her own special vault to listen to whenever she wants to.

[2:49] Yep.

[2:50] Hearing Stuart talk about different elements of the TV show Banshee.

[2:53] Like how I feel like the third season kind of goes off the rails.

[2:57] We'll talk about that later.

Dan McCoy

[2:59] A file folder on her desktop labeled Stuart Re-Banshee.

[3:06] Dip in whenever she needs some Stu Banshee takes.

Elliott Kalan

[3:09] Now, we have – every now and then she's just feeling the – she just can't quit cold turkey.

[3:15] She needs to ease off the Stu Banshee takes.

[3:17] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[3:18] Now, Joel is here today for a very important reason.

[3:21] Joel is a successful Hollywood television person, and he has worked with several famous people who have done, let's say, less than –

[3:31] they've been in projects that are less than the best.

[3:33] And now Dan and Stu and I, we've long been just the class clowns in the back just throwing spitballs at strangers.

[3:41] You know, just –

Dan McCoy

[3:42] That is not what I thought you were going to say.

[3:43] I thought you were going to be like, so Dan, Stu, and I, we've been – long been at the peak of Hollywood.

[3:49] We have never been involved in a project we're embarrassed by.

[3:52] So we would not know anything about that.

[3:54] Quite the opposite.

Stuart Wellington

[3:55] No, I like suggesting that we're like a Statler, Waldorf, and Gonzo trio.

Elliott Kalan

[4:00] How did we – Gonzo is in the show, Stu.

[4:02] He's not a side heckler.

[4:04] Gonzo is one of the stars of the show.

[4:06] He's the Gonzo the Great.

[4:07] He's the in-house artiste.

Stuart Wellington

[4:09] Yeah, I was giving you the credit of being the Gonzo while Dan and I are Statler and Waldorf.

Elliott Kalan

[4:15] Okay, that makes sense.

[4:16] That makes sense because Gonzo, also Jewish, so –

[4:19] Is that canon?

[4:20] I mean, we all knew that the signs were there, the stereotypical Jewish love of being shot out of a cannon and having sex with chickens.

Dan McCoy

[4:29] I mean, you have a just shy of sexual relationship with chicken, I think.

Elliott Kalan

[4:35] It's entirely – I mean, it's an oral fixation with chickens because I eat them a lot.

[4:40] I don't know if I'd call it sexual, though it is a sensual pleasure.

[4:43] But anyway, the reason that we have Joel here today is not to talk about my possible Freudian relationship with – it's not like they're living chickens, Dan.

[4:50] They're all dead fried chickens cut up in pieces, you know, which makes it sound worse now that I think about it.

[4:56] Now, Joel's worked with some very famous people and I was wondering – I wanted to talk to him about when you're working with someone who is very famous, who has been in like a really famous bad movie or bad TV show, how do you handle it?

[5:09] Like how do you not just want to talk to them about that all the time?

[5:13] Because the closest I could come to it on The Daily Show was talking to Daily Show correspondents and they didn't care about the bad stuff they made.

[5:19] I think I've told the story before about going out to a meal with John Oliver and him saying – it was a group of us and him saying, I'll pick up the check.

[5:25] And we said, no, no, no.

[5:26] And he goes, no, I got paid for the love guru today.

[5:27] And we go, okay.

[5:28] And he said, but by my paying this, you are all complicit in the making of the love guru.

[5:32] And we went, no.

[5:33] And that's the closest I've ever been.

[5:34] So, Joel, what do you do?

[5:36] How do you handle that situation?

[5:37] Pop quiz, hotshot.

S3

[5:39] Well, you know, the whole thing I think with dealing with actors a little bit and sort of about their past and stuff is like you kind of can't go too hot or too cold.

[5:49] You know, you can't go too fanboy and you can't go like, ooh, that was a real stinker, you know.

[5:55] Because either way, they get cringey.

[5:58] Like they don't – you know, there are certain things they want to talk about, about their past or others.

[6:02] But mainly when I'm working with an actor, I just sort of let them – if they want to talk about their career, you know, they can talk about their career.

[6:09] I'm not going to press too much.

[6:10] Meanwhile, I'm, of course, dying inside to talk to them about either the thing that they were in that I loved or the thing that they were in that I thought was the worst piece of shit ever.

[6:18] And I want the juice behind it.

[6:19] But, you know, you can't really – you got to let them come to you a little bit, I think, was my relationship to – like I worked with Hank Azaria for, you know, almost a decade on different variations of Rockmeyer.

[6:31] And it was two years in before I revealed that I was the biggest Simpsons fan of all time because I just didn't want – I also kind of didn't want him to know he had that power over me, you know.

[6:43] I just wanted to be like, oh, I'm just a guy who just – oh, I know you from things.

[6:47] And then –

Elliott Kalan

[6:48] Did you pretend you didn't know The Simpsons?

[6:50] Was he like, yeah, well, when I did The Simpsons, you're like not familiar.

[6:52] What's that?

[6:52] Is that like a web series?

S3

[6:53] I'm like, oh, is this some cartoon that you guest starred on?

Elliott Kalan

[6:56] What is this again?

[6:57] Did your child do this?

[6:59] Is this a cartoon that you're just a big fan of?

[7:01] Because you're like obsessed with these characters.

[7:03] Like you're doing voices all the time of them.

[7:05] Like I get it.

Stuart Wellington

[7:06] Was it difficult for you to wear a shirt that didn't have the Bartman on it when you went to work every day?

[7:14] Did that really fuck up your –

[7:16] Specifically the Bartman.

S3

[7:18] I wore the knockoff Bartman ones.

[7:21] Yeah, Bartman, the superhero character.

[7:21] You know, where he was a little off color and didn't have the right number of ridges so I could fool him into thinking that I wasn't a huge fan.

Stuart Wellington

[7:28] Yeah, the bootleg Barts are not necessarily true fan apparel.

[7:32] Exactly.

Elliott Kalan

[7:32] No, you just had to be clothed with whatever clothes you could buy on the street at that moment.

[7:37] That was your explanation.

[7:38] Yeah.

[7:38] It was like, oh, it was a prank.

[7:40] I was thrown on the street without a shirt and I had to buy whatever was available from a street vendor.

S3

[7:45] Yeah, yeah.

[7:46] But this kind of is a good sort of introduction to this conversation because, you know, one thing about working with actors and they've been in things that you've seen.

[7:55] And like a lot of times it's the most important thing to you, you know, their participation in this.

[8:02] When you think of them, you think of them in this project, right?

[8:04] Like Hank and the Simpsons.

[8:06] But for them, it's just a gig, you know, on most movie actors, even if they're the star of the movie, they work 30 days on that.

[8:12] Television show, it's a little something different.

[8:14] But television show, they filmed it that day.

[8:16] Usually very few actors go back and watch it again.

[8:19] Now there's an entire industry of them re-watching the show on podcast form.

[8:23] That's a new thing.

[8:24] Most times, you know, actors don't go back.

[8:27] And so, you know, once I did reel to Hank that I was a Simpsons fan, sometimes, you know, we would do something and I would quote the Simpsons.

[8:35] Sometimes his own dialogue back to them and he'd be like, what is that?

[8:37] What's that from?

[8:40] And I would be like, oh, it's, you know, it's from one of the classic season three to nine episodes I know by heart.

[8:46] And, you know, I just thought that since it was you, you would know.

[8:49] And he was like, you know, man, that was like a half an hour in the 90s.

[8:53] And I said the thing.

Stuart Wellington

[8:55] I mean, I've, this is on a much different level, obviously, but I'll talk to, say, a listener at the bar and I'll have a couple of drinks in me and they'll have a couple of drinks in them.

[9:06] You know, this is a different time pre-COVID.

[9:08] And they'll reference.

[9:08] Yeah, people stop drinking after COVID.

[9:10] Yeah.

[9:10] They'll reference, or they don't do it at a bar with me is the main thing.

[9:14] Fair, fair.

[9:15] But the, somebody will reference a bit from an episode and I'm like, I got to tell you, at least the first 10 years of this show, I was pretty drunk every episode.

[9:26] So did Hank Azaria use that excuse every time?

[9:28] Yeah.

S3

[9:29] He, you know, he's famously sober, so no.

[9:33] But he just, you know, like, especially recording jobs, like, you know, and he's a professional, so he'd bang it out three or four times takes and just move on.

[9:42] And, like, there's, like, famous things, like, from the Poochie episode, the whole thing about fireworks, you know, the fireworks factory gag of, like, you know, like, they keep promising they're getting to the fireworks factory and then they never do and Milhouse goes crazy and he goes, like, when are they going to get to the fireworks factory?

[9:58] You know?

[9:58] Yeah.

Elliott Kalan

[9:59] To put that in Flophouse terms, that's like in the movie Glass.

[10:03] Glass.

[10:04] Yeah, yeah.

[10:04] Where they keep saying they're going to go to the tallest building in, what, Pittsburgh?

[10:07] And it never happens.

[10:08] Yes.

[10:09] Philadelphia.

S3

[10:09] They're the same city.

[10:10] Anyway, continue.

[10:11] 100%.

[10:11] That's, you know, that's M. Night Shyamalan's fireworks factory, right?

[10:14] So in writing terms and in show terms, sometimes I'll be like, and I've probably said, I know I've said it to Hank, and I'll be like, it's just like, it's like, it's the fireworks factory.

[10:22] It's the thing we're promising if we don't do this.

[10:24] And Hank's like, I don't know what you're talking about.

[10:26] And I was like, there's an episode of The Simpsons called Poochie, you know?

[10:31] You're like, man, you're on that thing again?

[10:33] It's the Poochie episode is the most famous one because it's about the business that we work in.

[10:37] And it's very inside baseball, but done very well.

Elliott Kalan

[10:41] People love it because there are scenes in professional writers' rooms at TV shows.

Dan McCoy

[10:45] No, it is true, though, that, like, you know, for someone like me watching The Simpsons, like, that's the most important thing to me because, like, that's the show I grew up with and watched over and over again.

[10:58] For them, it's just another day of their life.

[10:59] I remember when, like, you know, Elliot and I were working together when John was on The Daily Show and, like, John would come in at the end of the week and stare up at the cards on the board because he'd be like, okay, what did we do this week?

[11:12] I don't remember.

[11:13] Like, it flies out of your brain right away.

Elliott Kalan

[11:15] There would be Friday mornings where the interns or the PAs, I don't remember whose job it was, to redo the card bulletin board that laid out what we did on the show, would change them too early in the morning.

[11:26] And we'd assemble for the meeting at the end of the week and we'd look at the board and it would be all new blank cards and we would not remember what happened that week.

Dan McCoy

[11:32] Yeah, we'd all stare at each other like, uh, I think it was a good week.

Elliott Kalan

[11:36] Or it reminds me of, I think George R. R. Martin has, like, a couple readers that he asks questions of.

[11:42] So he'll be like, wait, what's this character's hair color again?

[11:45] I better call Susie.

[11:46] Like, Susie's read all these books.

[11:48] And, like, for him it's just, like, a thing he made up, you know.

[11:50] So it doesn't, I guess, doesn't have the same level of.

[11:53] I hate to bring it to you, Stu.

[11:55] Oh, Stuart.

[11:57] I don't think he reads the books himself.

[11:59] I think he just kind of makes them up and writes them and then forgets about them.

Dan McCoy

[12:02] Oh, he's having an existential crisis right in front of us.

Elliott Kalan

[12:06] I mean, to be fair, Stuart, it is.

[12:07] Makes them up?

[12:10] They're not real chronicles of actual history, you know.

[12:14] And he is a special case where he does forget that, like, he does have chronic amnesia like Dana Carvey and Blank Slate.

[12:20] So that's why it takes so long for the books to come out.

[12:21] Because every morning he has to be reminded that he writes these books.

Dan McCoy

[12:24] I don't want any Clean Slate fans being like, Blank Slate.

[12:29] Oh, Clean Slate, sorry.

[12:30] Not Blank Slate.

[12:31] Clearly Elliot was thinking of Blank Check, the book, the movie about a kid who gets a Blank Check.

Elliott Kalan

[12:37] But Dan is clearly thinking of Blank Man, the novelized adaptation, when he said the book.

S3

[12:44] Anyway, so.

[12:46] But going back to the bad movies of it all, you know.

[12:48] So, like, you know, I just, you know, I come at this as a fan with everything.

[12:53] You start off as a fan, right?

[12:54] And then you want to do it.

[12:55] And then you try to do it and you usually end up copying the things that you like.

[12:59] And then you get beyond it.

[13:00] And then if you're lucky enough and, you know, you start working and you start working with people that you respect.

[13:05] And especially if you get in a position of power, you know, like if you run your own show, like I did on my show Brockmire.

[13:10] You can cast people that you've seen in things.

[13:13] And that's a great thing.

[13:14] And so, you know, we cast Amanda Peet in the first season.

[13:19] So lucky to have her.

[13:20] She's such a great actress.

[13:21] It was a part that was really, I sort of envisioned her in mind for.

[13:27] And so to do it is great.

[13:28] And, you know, she's on set.

[13:30] And this is my first.

[13:31] I've been probably, you know, TV writer for five years.

[13:33] But it's the first job time a showrunner.

[13:35] I'm on set shooting the show.

[13:36] It's great.

[13:36] And she starts talking about Aaron Sorkin and working on Studio 60.

[13:41] And it hadn't hit me yet that, like, Studio 60, my comedy obsession from, you know, whenever that was out.

[13:47] You know that I used, I watched obsessively multiple times episodes laughing at the work.

[13:53] Because Studio 60 is my kind of sort of bad movie, bad TV show.

[13:58] My personal favorite is really talented people who've gotten to a point in their career where no one says no.

[14:06] And everyone's just smiling and going, more, do it, yes.

[14:12] And especially writers, too, because I feel like I'm, you know, I'm a similar kind of writer and I can sometimes come at things, right?

[14:19] No subtle glancings.

[14:20] No, I try to, like, really write the line that says it or whatever, which can go wrong a lot of times.

[14:25] And sometimes you're too purple.

[14:27] So I think my own fear of becoming that, I gravitate towards your life itselfs.

[14:33] Your Studio 60s.

[14:35] You know, we can all think of that example of the personal, you know, project that goes wrong.

Elliott Kalan

[14:40] The personal project where the artist is like, this is my statement that I'm making to the world about what is most important to me.

[14:48] And then it comes out and people are like, ugh.

Stuart Wellington

[14:51] They're like, this book of Henry should have stayed closed.

S3

[14:57] Book of Henry is a great one.

[14:59] It's, you know, it's the newest one.

[15:02] And so, you know, with Sorkin, he clearly has this obsession with SNL and with comedy.

[15:08] And despite, like, a real misunderstanding of comedians and how comedy works, it gets made, what it's like to be around them, what comedians talk about.

[15:18] Like, that show had no bits in it.

[15:20] No one did any bits.

[15:21] No.

[15:22] It was just people in hallways seriously talking about comedy as if, like, it's life or death.

[15:27] Where literally there's a scene halfway through where Nate Corddry is showing his parents around and his mom goes, like, so this is where you do the skits?

[15:36] And he goes, they're sketches, mom.

[15:38] Sketches.

[15:38] And he storms away angrily because in Sorkin's mind, that's what comedians do.

[15:44] They take it so seriously.

Dan McCoy

[15:46] I mean, to be fair, I hate the word skit over sketch.

[15:51] But I would just internally roll my eyes.

[15:53] I wouldn't let angrily.

Elliott Kalan

[15:54] Well, but I feel like in a real comedy place, he would have said, yeah, yeah, they're skits, mom.

[16:00] And then would have said to his writers, yeah, my mom called it a skit.

[16:04] And they'd be like, oh, well, maybe she met Skitch.

[16:07] And they would just be called Skitches from then on at the office.

[16:09] And three generations of employees later, they would still be calling them Skitches and no one would remember where it came from.

S3

[16:15] I feel like that's the way that would be like an off-brand Disney, like Lilo and Stitch, but it would be called Skitch.

Elliott Kalan

[16:22] Lilo and Skitch.

[16:23] And people would be like, this is amazing.

[16:25] And they'd be like, I don't understand anymore where this came from.

[16:27] It's like when a meme gets turned into something so completely different.

[16:32] And you're like, yeah, yeah, well, that's based on a Japanese cartoon about a dog that pees on a cat.

[16:36] And you're like, really?

[16:37] Then why?

Stuart Wellington

[16:37] I don't understand.

[16:38] You'll see a meme and you'll be like, what the fuck is this?

[16:41] And then the first comment is, oh, my God, I can't like this is so me or something.

[16:46] And you're like, I don't what?

[16:47] How?

[16:47] How did this connect with you so deeply?

[16:49] And then you spend the next four hours going through rabbit holes trying to figure it all out.

[16:54] And by the end, you find out that George R. Martin just makes it up.

[16:57] What the fuck?

[16:57] Stuart, this isn't how I wanted you to find out.

[16:59] I'm sorry.

[17:00] It just came out of me.

Dan McCoy

[17:00] I mean, I feel like I went through that, though.

[17:03] The first time I saw the butterfly meme, I'm like, OK, I need to see six more of these.

[17:07] And then I will kind of get the general idea of what this thing is.

[17:10] Which one is that one?

Elliott Kalan

[17:11] Dan, describe the meme to me in words.

[17:13] This is the best way to communicate them.

Dan McCoy

[17:14] There's a bookish looking man.

[17:17] He is.

[17:18] Oh, yeah, yeah.

[17:19] OK, I know the one you're talking about.

[17:20] Yeah, and he has a book.

[17:21] I think he actually has a book.

[17:23] He is a nerdy looking Japanese teen boy, but like the handsome Japanese teen boy nerd.

[17:28] And a butterfly has a lighting in front of him.

[17:31] Yeah.

[17:32] Yeah.

[17:32] You label everything in there like it's a fucking Thomas Nast cartoon.

[17:37] Yeah, everything gets labeled.

S3

[17:38] Sure.

[17:39] So my third day on set, she mentioned Sorkin.

[17:43] I immediately have the not so brilliant idea.

[17:46] Oh, I will talk to her about Studio 60 and see if she can give me some like juicy backs.

[17:52] You know, what's it like?

[17:54] Whatever.

[17:54] Or and maybe she'll she'll like, you know, maybe she'll get like the maybe she's like one of the people.

[18:01] Because it was a I wasn't alone in my Studio 60 obsession.

[18:05] It was a very comedy writer improviser, you know, thing that everyone, you know, I watched every episode.

[18:11] It was a show behind the scenes of SNL that in the end was a three part.

[18:16] They ended their one season with a three part episode about a kidnap and rescue where Nate Corddry's cast members brother was kidnapped by the Taliban.

[18:24] And the NBC executive had to buy it.

[18:26] And they watched the rescue from the director's booth of the studio because Sorkin at that point just had lost the plot and was like, I don't know.

[18:34] A West Wing idea that I forgot about.

Elliott Kalan

[18:37] It's it's a it's like you're saying it is it is set in a world where comedy is treated as seriously as the things that on the West Wing were in the newsroom.

[18:45] And like the series opens with the like a real network style.

[18:50] The head writer like walks off.

[18:52] He hates how how bad this show has gotten.

[18:54] And then they hire a new head writer.

[18:55] And there's a press conference where the new head writer is introduced to probably 40 reporters in the lobby of this big, like fancy building.

[19:03] And I just remember, like when I became head writer of The Daily Show, I don't think they even announced it.

[19:08] I think the only like if you didn't watch the credits, you wouldn't know there was a new head writer.

[19:13] But you but also credits most episodes.

S3

[19:16] You know, you didn't do a giant musical number from the HMS pinafore as your opening episode move.

Elliott Kalan

[19:23] So that was that that I mean, it's also the fact that like and it was strange that like Mark McKinney was on that show and from one of the greatest sketch shows of all time.

[19:32] And yet, like the sketches on it, it was almost like they were like, how do we make these the least funny sketches in the history of the world?

[19:41] You're saying sketches, right?

[19:42] Yeah.

[19:42] I'm sorry.

[19:43] I meant sketches because they're named after Skitch Henderson.

Dan McCoy

[19:45] I mean, Sorkin to like good Sorkin is a lot of fun.

[19:49] Bad Sorkin is awful.

[19:50] But like he can write a joke.

[19:52] He can just he just writes it in the context of like these are the characters I've established as the world.

[19:57] Like he'll he will write a funny line.

[20:00] But then writing about comedy, he seemed to be laboring under the misapprehension that everyone in comedy got into it because they want to like merit make serious points about like truth.

[20:12] And the thing is, like, yeah, comedy can be good at that.

[20:15] People laugh because they recognize the inherent truth of something.

[20:19] But it's not like people get into comedy.

[20:22] We're like, yes, yes.

[20:23] I'm going to expose things.

[20:25] That is.

Elliott Kalan

[20:26] No, no.

[20:26] You get to you start telling jokes about serious things when you realize the jokes about silly things you've been telling have failed to fill the emptiness inside you that you thought you could fill with the laughter of others.

[20:36] And you're like, oh, I see.

[20:38] I'll fill it with people nodding and saying, ah, yes.

[20:40] Ah, yes.

[20:41] And then you do that and that doesn't fill it either.

[20:44] That's when you start doing just straight dramas and you're like, OK, when people cry when they see me on screen, that's when it'll fill the hole.

[20:50] That doesn't do it either.

[20:51] And you realize eventually there's only one thing that can fill that hole.

[20:54] And that's a doctor implanting a hole filler, which is something they do now.

Dan McCoy

[20:57] I thought you were going to get much darker.

[21:00] There's only one thing that can fill that hole.

[21:02] And that's the grave digger above your grave when you die.

[21:05] I mean, it would be amazing.

[21:07] The grave digger, the monster truck.

[21:08] Exactly.

[21:08] I mean, who would let dirt into your grave?

Stuart Wellington

[21:10] And you're like, shouldn't you have a fucking shovel, dude?

Dan McCoy

[21:13] So wait, we've delayed this story to.

[21:16] Well, I wrote to say one thing.

Elliott Kalan

[21:18] Grave digger should have a plow front so it can move that dirt.

[21:21] Thank you.

[21:21] And it does not.

[21:22] And this is a hobby horse I know been on a lot.

[21:24] That grave digger should have a plow on its front.

[21:27] And it doesn't.

[21:27] So I apologize.

[21:28] Anyway, Joel, you're saying so.

[21:29] She brings up Sorkin.

[21:30] You're finally going to spring all those sweet Studio 60 questions.

Stuart Wellington

[21:33] This is during a walk and talk.

[21:34] I'm only hoping.

S3

[21:35] Yes, yes.

[21:36] We're just walking in a circle around the set while people look at papers that have nothing

[21:42] written on them.

[21:44] And yeah.

Elliott Kalan

[21:44] That was the thing we used to do in the Daily Show offices a lot is we'd just pick up a piece

[21:48] of paper off a desk and glance at it and say, this is good stuff.

[21:50] And that was our Studio 60 bit.

[21:52] But OK.

[21:53] So you're talking to Amanda Pitt.

S3

[21:55] And I'm really excited to get into this juicy business about the show.

[21:59] And this goes back to the earlier thing about the actors not having the same relationship.

[22:05] She was not aware that there was a group of people who made fun of that show or cared about

[22:12] it still or cared about to make fun of it.

[22:14] And she was, I would, you know, in a professional way, resistant to the idea that it was bad and

[22:20] that she would be complicit with me shitting on it.

[22:24] And it wasn't the greatest move on my part.

[22:26] It was a very early showrunner move of mine.

[22:28] And then immediately I talked to her a little bit and she politely sort of was like, I'm not

[22:34] going to do that.

[22:35] Why?

[22:35] And then she sort of explained her experience on it.

[22:37] And her experience is one of very real.

[22:40] And it was one of a working actor of she, you know, got a big part on a big show.

[22:46] And, you know, it was an ensemble.

[22:49] It was the hours were great.

[22:50] Her best friend, Sarah Paulson, they got to hang on, you know, set together.

[22:54] And hang out in each other's dressing rooms.

[22:55] She got pregnant on the show.

[22:57] They were really cool about her hours.

[23:00] And like, and she got to deliver Aaron Sorkin monologues.

[23:03] And, you know, it didn't work out that great.

[23:04] But she's been in worse things and she's been in better things.

[23:07] And like, why are you bringing it up five years later?

[23:10] It was a real, like, I just, they said Eli Wallach was an old writer.

[23:16] And it was kind of funny that, you know, he was talking about 1950s comedy and everyone

[23:20] gathered around him like he was an old sage.

[23:22] And it was just funny.

Elliott Kalan

[23:25] Yeah.

[23:25] But don't you think, but don't you think it was crazy that the writer's room was so dimly

[23:28] lit on the show?

[23:29] And there were like six writers and like SNL has like 30 writers.

S3

[23:33] It's unrealistic.

[23:34] So she wasn't really playing along.

[23:37] And for a good reason, which was that like, that was a good gig for her.

[23:40] But there was one sequence where because she got pregnant, they didn't really know what

[23:44] to do.

[23:45] And it sort of threw his storyline off.

[23:47] And so he was like, oh, I'll just get her together, Bradley Whitford.

[23:50] And it'll be a phone relationship.

[23:52] And she can just do things over the phone.

[23:54] And so as part of that, like, you know, Bradley Whitford had this one scene where like, he

[23:58] was like, I love you on the phone.

[24:00] There had been no indication of relation between them.

[24:02] He's like, you know what?

[24:02] I realized I love you.

[24:04] And I'm going to come get you.

[24:05] And then she was like, okay.

[24:07] And it was very aggressive.

[24:08] And in that Sorkin way, like, not the greatest to the female characters and their agency.

[24:15] And she was like, yeah, it's because I was pregnant.

[24:18] And he wrote around it.

[24:19] What's your problem with it?

[24:20] And I was like, oh, yeah.

[24:21] No, he was just being a good producer and helping you.

[24:25] I'm sorry.

[24:26] You know?

Dan McCoy

[24:27] I mean, I think this is a great thing to remember because it's a weird thing for us

[24:32] to say as a bad movie podcast, for sure.

[24:35] Go on.

[24:36] But, you know, like, these things are not, like, things to get mad about.

[24:41] We can all lighten up.

[24:42] Like, I, no, I mean, particularly in this age of the internet, you see so much vitriol.

[24:47] Like, why did this person who I, like, an actor I like do this thing?

[24:52] I feel like I've got this relationship with them that means they won't do this shitty series.

[24:59] And it's like, yeah, but, you know, a lot of people are just working actors.

[25:05] Like, they're doing things.

[25:06] There are all sorts of factors that go into people's personal lives that make decisions.

[25:11] And you know what?

[25:11] Like, art sometimes is, like, sixth on the list.

Elliott Kalan

[25:16] Yeah.

[25:16] And actors, because they're the most visible part of a thing, they often get, they get

[25:21] this stuff hung around their neck that's not really their fault that it's bad and that

[25:26] they didn't have them.

[25:27] I was thinking a lot about how, like, how Catwoman is always going to be the Halle Berry movie,

[25:32] Catwoman.

[25:32] But, like, Halle Berry didn't write it or direct it or produce it.

[25:36] Like, she's in it.

[25:37] I mean, to be fair, I don't think Pete Soth got a lot of work after Catwoman.

[25:41] No, that's true.

[25:41] But it's not like she was the guiding force behind Catwoman.

[25:45] Yeah.

[25:46] You know?

[25:46] For her, it was like, hey, do you want to be in a superhero movie?

[25:48] Well, how much are you going to pay me to be in this superhero movie?

[25:50] This much.

[25:51] Then, yes, I will be in your superhero movie.

[25:52] Yeah.

[25:52] We're like how, and it all gets forgotten eventually, like how a lot of people forget

[25:57] that George C. Scott did a sitcom for one year where he was the president.

[26:01] And it's not something that comes up a lot when you talk about George C. Scott.

[26:04] But I bet there was a time when he was walking around and someone was like, oh, Mr. Scott,

[26:08] I'm such a big fan of yours.

[26:09] And he was like, oh, what of?

[26:10] Patton, The Hospital, Dr. Strangelove?

[26:12] He goes, I love that president show that you did.

[26:15] Tell me all the amazing stories behind it.

[26:17] And he's like, I don't know.

[26:17] I did it for a year.

[26:18] Like, I don't remember.

[26:20] And he said it like George C. Scott.

[26:21] So it was like, I don't know.

[26:23] Because that's what he sounds like, you know?

S3

[26:25] Well, I would say like something I try to think of, too, is like sometimes you can be good

[26:30] and do your job well as an actor.

[26:32] And then you just run into the wall that your writer and your director sort of put in front

[26:36] of you, right?

[26:37] Like Kirsten Dunst in Elizabethtown gets saddled with Manic Pixie Dream Girl, right?

[26:42] I would argue because she does what Cameron Crowe wants so well.

[26:46] Yeah.

[26:47] She sort of nails an aesthetic that he's looking for.

[26:50] And, you know, and the movie is not good.

[26:53] And you want to talk about another bad movie of when you get to the point where no one

[26:56] says no.

[26:57] And is that a bad performance?

[27:00] Maybe.

[27:01] But maybe it's just a good performance of what he wanted.

[27:04] And, you know, and so you're as an actor, you're so vulnerable.

[27:09] Because you're the only thing that people see.

[27:12] And you have the least power.

[27:13] You know, the sound guy has more power than you.

[27:16] You know, the camera crew has more power than you.

[27:18] The writer, the director, the editor.

Elliott Kalan

[27:20] But that's because they have electric power, which is, you know, that runs the world.

[27:24] You know, that kind of power nobody can compete against.

S3

[27:27] That's why they call him Best Boy, because he has the most power on set.

[27:30] You know, he's plugging in, he's plugging out.

Elliott Kalan

[27:33] He's the guy who literally stands by the switch that turns on the electricity for the set and

Stuart Wellington

[27:37] goes, uh-uh, stay on my good side.

[27:40] Didn't like that anything.

[27:41] Who's the Best Boy?

[27:42] You're the Best Boy.

[27:43] Don't turn the power off.

[27:44] You're the Best Boy.

[27:45] They call him Best Boy, because he's the guy who has to run to Best Buy if they need

[27:48] something, right?

S3

[27:51] Exactly.

[27:51] That's why they named it Best Buy.

[27:52] Because there was those Best Boys running around town, going to different hardware stores,

Stuart Wellington

[27:56] being like, full of Best Boys.

[27:58] Yeah.

[27:58] Do you have a four-plugger?

Elliott Kalan

[27:59] As a child, he was bitten by Pete Best, and he gained the powers to have almost been in

[28:04] the Beatles and became the superhero Best Boy.

[28:06] And unfortunately, when he grew up, people still knew him as Best Boy, so he still went

[28:09] by that, even though he's an old man now.

Dan McCoy

[28:11] But this is a good point, though.

[28:12] These things are so collaborative that no one should either get all the blame or even

[28:21] all the credit, which I don't know.

[28:24] I've only ever written on the one show, but there have been times in my life where people

[28:31] assume that I'm a lot smarter than I am because they like The Daily Show so much.

[28:36] I'm like, oh, no, no, no.

[28:37] Most of us are dumb.

Elliott Kalan

[28:39] Dan goes, talk to me for a few minutes.

[28:41] Yeah.

Dan McCoy

[28:41] And this is kind of like what I was saying about New Mutants, what you're saying now about

[28:46] how I know Anya Taylor-Joy is a great actor from seeing her in other things, so I'm not

[28:53] going to get too mad at her in New Mutants for having an accent that's really silly.

[28:57] I'm going to be more like, if anything, I'm just going to be like, oh, the director should

[29:00] have told her not to do that accent.

Jesse Thorn

[29:03] I'm Jesse Thorne.

[29:05] On the next Bullseye, we've got the one and only Ted Danson.

[29:08] We'll talk about his new show, Mr. Mayor, about Cheers, and about the secret to success

[29:14] in comedy.

[29:15] I mean, I feel like one of your signature comedic moves at this point in your career is gazing.

[29:23] You do a lot of interesting gazing.

[29:27] I also love this.

[29:29] Gazing.

[29:30] I love that.

[29:31] And if I'm not, I'm going to start because that's great.

[29:34] That's Bullseye.

[29:36] Find it on MaximumFun.org and PR.org and wherever you get podcasts.

Stuart Wellington

[29:44] Welcome back to Fireside Chat on KMAX.

[29:47] With me in studio to take your calls is the dopest duo on the West Coast, Oliver Wong and

[29:53] Morgan Rhodes.

[29:54] Go ahead, caller.

S3

[29:55] Hey, I'm looking for a music podcast that's insightful and thoughtful, but also helps me discover

[30:01] artists and albums that I've never heard of.

Elliott Kalan

[30:03] Yeah, man.

[30:04] Sounds like you need to listen to Heat Rocks every week.

S3

[30:06] Myself and I'm Morgan Rhodes and my co-host here, Oliver Wong, talk to influential guests

[30:11] about a canonical album that has changed their lives.

[30:15] Guests like Moby, Open Mic Eagle, talk about albums by Prince, Joni Mitchell, and so much

[30:20] more.

Dan McCoy

[30:21] Yo, what's that show called again?

S3

[30:23] Heat Rocks.

[30:23] Deep dives into hot records.

[30:25] Every Thursday on Maximum Fun.

[30:29] Another thing I was thinking about about this is like, you know, I used to host bad movie

[30:33] nights at my house and I've been to cat screenings and, you know, lots of bad movie, you know,

[30:40] midnight shows.

[30:41] And I went with my comedian friends and my writer friends and my improviser friends.

[30:44] And I've never known an actor who was into bad movies in the same way.

[30:51] It's not a, you know, when you go to acting school or acting class and they make you be

[30:55] an animal for 20 minutes or they make you be the personification of regrets.

[31:00] All of these things that are just like ripping your insides open to get you as most vulnerable

[31:04] as you can to get your, you know, whatever guard you have as a natural human being and just

[31:10] destroy it.

[31:12] You then, I don't think, can go and watch someone on screen and be like, they're so stupid.

[31:17] Look at that.

[31:18] That's so dumb.

[31:20] They're not even doing it well.

[31:22] I think fundamentally.

[31:24] They think they're cats.

[31:25] Yeah, exactly.

[31:26] Can you believe that?

[31:27] They were so excited to get that.

[31:28] They told their parents that they're dumb.

[31:31] You know, like, they don't have that.

Dan McCoy

[31:33] You know, you saying this has brought me to a shocking revelation.

[31:38] And I don't know.

[31:39] You can all decide whether this is significant or not.

[31:42] I watch a bad movie or TV show and I am mostly inclined, if I'm going to single out anyone

[31:50] to blame, to blame the writer.

[31:53] And that is my job.

[31:54] So what does that mean?

S3

[31:57] No, I agree.

[31:58] It's, you know, something's the fault.

[31:59] I think it's usually, especially in TV, which is so much of a writer's medium where the writers

[32:04] really control, it's the only artistic field where the writers have power.

[32:10] And so when there's something bad in TV, like, you know, I've worked on things that didn't

[32:14] turn out great and we were all in the room and we were trying our best and for different

[32:20] reasons.

[32:21] And, you know, when I look back at like, well, what went wrong?

[32:24] Usually it was, we were unable, we maybe went in the wrong area.

[32:28] This wasn't that funny, as funny as we thought it was in the room.

[32:31] Or we, it was funny to us, but we didn't translate it to the actors and never made it to the page

[32:35] in that way.

[32:36] Or it was a room bit that never should have made it to the script.

[32:38] You know, there's all kinds of things.

[32:40] And usually when something that I'm a part of in TV isn't successful, it's, it's our fault

[32:45] of the writer's room.

[32:46] Yeah.

Elliott Kalan

[32:47] Yeah.

[32:47] I, the, uh, I, I've never really thought about this before, but the way you described acting

[32:53] school is really like being an actor is being, is choosing to be inducted into like a cult

[32:59] where they break you down so that you're just, you'll just do anything.

[33:02] Like you'll do whatever's on the page.

[33:04] And it's such, it's so, it's so like, uh, like it's really terrifying to me.

[33:09] And there are times in my life where I'm like, you know what, if I worked at it, I think I

[33:12] could be like a so-so actor.

[33:15] Like, I think I could be an okay non-professional community theater actor, but the way you described

[33:20] it, I don't have the guts for that to just, to just enter in and just become a

[33:23] like, uh, you know, this, uh, this person who just like in the Marines where they tear

[33:28] you down completely.

[33:29] So you'll just take orders.

[33:30] That seems so frightening to me.

[33:31] Actors, you got, you got what it takes and I don't.

[33:35] Anyway, here's the script.

[33:36] You're going to do a lot of dumb stuff in it.

[33:37] So go do it.

Stuart Wellington

[33:38] I mean, I'll, I'll, I'll stand up for actors now, you know, as, uh, I don't know if you

[33:42] guys know this, uh, I'm a credited actor.

[33:44] I do a voice.

[33:46] I'm tube man and psycho horror man.

[33:48] We're all aware.

[33:48] We're all aware, Stuart.

Dan McCoy

[33:50] What was your, so did you, you know, like pull your, you know,

[33:53] expose yourself, your vulnerabilities?

Stuart Wellington

[33:56] Of course I did.

[33:57] Couldn't you tell it was all on the screen, Dan?

[33:59] Yeah, that's true.

Dan McCoy

[33:59] You, you did seem to be just a sort of a brain in a tube.

Elliott Kalan

[34:04] Exactly.

[34:04] I mean, Dan, do you understand how vulnerable you are if you're a brain in a tube?

[34:07] Anybody could just knock you over.

[34:09] He doesn't even have skin.

S3

[34:10] He doesn't even have a skeletal system.

[34:12] He has nothing.

[34:13] He's the most vulnerable he could be.

Elliott Kalan

[34:15] Yeah.

Dan McCoy

[34:15] Eat your fucking heart out, Christian Bale.

[34:18] Don't tell him that, Dan.

Elliott Kalan

[34:19] He'll think it's for a part and he'll do it.

S3

[34:22] Yeah.

[34:23] But this is kind of a good segue to another sort of story about, you know,

[34:27] talking to actors about bad things, which is that I worked on a Gary Shandling pilot

[34:34] right before he died.

[34:35] Oh, wow.

[34:36] And as part of that, I got to hang out at Gary Shandling's house and sort of talk to him for,

[34:43] you know, we were in the sort of scripting stage, so it wasn't too much.

[34:48] It was probably like three meetings totaling like nine hours.

[34:52] And what he really talked to me about the most was his experiences on Larry Sanders and his

[34:59] experiences on What Planet Are You From?, which is this terrible movie that he made that he wrote

[35:05] and starred in that Mike Nichols directed.

[35:06] And he was telling me this because, you know, he hadn't done a show since Larry Sanders and his friend,

[35:12] an agent who I knew barely but kind of brought me on this project, was trying to get him back out there

[35:18] and trying to get him to sort of he was, you know, he'd really found a kind of Zen guru-esque lifestyle

[35:24] in his personal life where he was very satisfied and he was very happy.

[35:27] But in his professional life, it was really this thing hanging there of he had such a bad experience of Larry Sanders.

[35:33] You can watch the documentary about it where essentially his manager stole money from him four different ways.

[35:39] And then when he sued them, bugged his phone to listen in on his conversations for the case,

[35:46] which, you know, this was, it was Brad Gray, who was a big time Hollywood guy, and they were best friends for years.

[35:52] And it was such a personal betrayal that he just, it was, you know, 20 years later, it was just right on the surface.

[35:59] He just couldn't.

[36:01] And in talking about working and could he do this project with me and, you know, could he play this character?

[36:07] He would just talk about it because it was just like, you know, basically like, can I, is this going to hurt me like that hurt me?

[36:13] You know, like it was still so raw.

[36:15] And he also talked about what planet are you from, which he wrote as a sort of his, his starring vehicle to break out from TV to film.

[36:22] And he worked on the script for a long time.

[36:25] And then he hired, it was an amazing cast.

[36:27] It's like John Goodman, Annette Bening, Greg Kinnear, Ben Kingsley.

[36:31] It's just a, you know, all-star cast.

[36:33] And what he described is basically, and they're both dead.

[36:37] So I can sort of talk about it, but it's also been talked about other places.

[36:40] But what he talked about is Mike Nichols just didn't like him kind of personally and didn't think he was a good actor and didn't think the script and didn't like whatever.

[36:50] I think they thought it was kind of be kind of a defending your life, kind of slightly raised comedic sci-fi premise that actually gets into larger questions.

[36:59] And it just wasn't there.

[37:01] And I think Mike Nichols, you know, maybe a weekend was like, oof, this isn't good.

[37:05] You know what?

[37:06] Let's knock off at 4.30 and collect our paychecks and go home.

[37:11] And Gary Shanling was like, this is my film.

[37:14] You know, this is the thing that I've been working on forever.

[37:18] And that it's, let's stay till midnight and do 100 takes and improvise.

[37:22] He loved improv.

[37:23] And the fact that Mike Nichols would just look at him and go like, no, it's never going to get better than this.

[37:30] And what I've sort of heard about Mike Nichols is that, you know, he was very direct and could be withering.

[37:35] He could be funny and clever and affable.

[37:37] But like, if it wasn't, he was direct.

[37:39] And Gary Shanling was like the most sensitive person you will ever meet in a way where it was like his superpower.

[37:47] If you think about Larry Sanders, like what is so good about it is like the little social interactions, the sort of toxic masculinity, how it, you know, how it shows itself in a gesture in a way of how ego gets punctured.

[38:01] These are really hard concepts to put into a script.

[38:05] And he was just, he would pick up anything.

[38:07] And whenever you talk to him, he was always, he would always have the conversation with you you were having.

[38:12] And then he would also be having the conversation about the conversation you were having.

[38:16] So you'd be like, okay, so you took what I said like this, but actually I not didn't mean like that.

[38:20] And I could see by what you're doing now.

[38:21] And he was always dead on, right?

[38:23] So here's this human membrane that is like picking up everything.

[38:27] And then you have this comedy legend who is like, you don't got it, kid.

[38:31] And so he would describe like having panic attacks and like not wanting to come out of his trailer.

[38:35] And it was not something that was like, you could be like, yeah, but it was dumb, right?

[38:40] You know, it was like what he was doing.

[38:42] Yeah, but it was just a job, huh?

[38:44] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[38:44] But it was like a bad movie.

[38:45] But like, you know, but you did good things and that was a bad thing.

[38:48] Like, so what?

[38:48] It was like I spent years of my life on this to be tortured by my hero is how he sort of phrased it.

[38:56] And I'm sure Mike Nichols would have his own version.

[38:58] I wasn't in his living room, so he didn't tell me that.

[39:00] But, you know, if I look at-

Elliott Kalan

[39:01] The Mike Nichols version would be like, did I make that?

[39:04] Oh, yeah, I guess I did.

[39:05] Yeah.

[39:05] Oh, yeah, nice guy.

[39:06] Gary Shanley.

[39:07] Anyway, like the way that you meet your high school bully and he's like, hey, nice to see you, man.

[39:12] And it's like, you were like, I have nightmares about you.

[39:14] And he's like, yeah, I don't know.

[39:16] High school, am I right?

[39:17] So what are you doing these days?

[39:18] Like, I just don't remember it.

S3

[39:20] Yeah.

[39:21] I mean, I think Mike Nichols has done what he did, 30 movies.

[39:24] Like, you know, he did some stinkers.

[39:26] And I think he knew the feeling of it.

[39:27] And he was just like, I'm old.

[39:29] This one isn't it.

[39:31] Let's get through it.

[39:32] And yeah.

Elliott Kalan

[39:32] He's like, he's just shouting.

[39:34] He's like, we got a wolf on our hands.

[39:35] This is a wolf, everybody.

[39:37] All right.

[39:38] Let's get this done.

[39:38] It's a wolf.

S3

[39:39] And, you know, maybe if they had done the work that Gary wanted, they could have rescued it.

[39:43] Or maybe I'm probably leaning to the Mike Nichols at all.

[39:47] It was a misbegotten premise that was sort of never going to get there.

[39:50] And, you know, going home at 430 is always nice.

[39:53] But but clearly like but Shanling, like he just it and he brought it up, I think, because we're working on something and because it was like I was trying to coax him back into the world of acting.

[40:03] And he was very happy to be a guru to so many powerful people, you know, to Judd Habitat, to Jon Favreau, where these people would show him everything they were doing.

[40:14] So he had this.

[40:15] So he still was feeling artistically heard and important.

[40:19] And he was so happy in his sort of personal life with the basketball game.

[40:22] And he had great friendships.

[40:24] And like and I was asking him to, like, take the leap again.

[40:28] And he was telling me, but I got hurt so bad.

[40:32] Like, how do I know you're not going to hurt me in his own way?

[40:35] And the last thing he ever said, he died a week later.

[40:39] We ended a meeting and he was looking at me sort of critically.

[40:42] And he said, I'm uncomfortable with your certainty, with your level of certainty.

[40:48] And I said, about what?

[40:49] And he said, about everything.

[40:52] I just said to my friends, I said the anecdote.

[40:54] And they were like, that is the most accurate thing anyone has ever said about you.

[40:58] I'm like, that is a thing.

[41:00] Like, when I pitch and when I talk, I'm very certain.

[41:03] And then someone pitches me the better idea.

[41:04] And I go, you're right.

[41:05] That's better.

[41:05] Now I'm certain you have the thing.

[41:07] And that's going to be the thing.

[41:09] But it was sort of a, it spoke to his ability to sort of look you and really see your essence and to just nail who you were as a person.

[41:19] And that, and he was telling me basically like, I'm unsure of you.

[41:22] And we were still in the sort of pilot stage.

[41:24] And then he died the next week.

[41:27] And, you know, but he still left me with something.

[41:29] I mean, he was just known for that.

[41:30] And so I'm not telling the story to sort of, to shit on Mike Nichols, you know, who's a genius and has done some of the best weeks of all time.

[41:37] Or to shit on Gary Shanley, who did arguably the best comedy of all time and maybe two of the top ten.

[41:42] These are great artists who did something that didn't work.

[41:45] And, you know, for Mike Nichols, it was probably just a job.

[41:47] But for Gary Shanley, it was a wound he carried his whole life, you know.

[41:51] Very rare is the actor who takes a paycheck gig and then doesn't invest something of themselves in it.

[41:57] And he was the kind of, he was a writer actor.

[41:59] So everything he did, he put everything into.

[42:01] And so when it failed and it was bad and it was mocked, it hurt him so that he was still telling me these stories 20 years later.

[42:09] And it was like it happened yesterday.

Elliott Kalan

[42:11] You were basically in the position of, you were the government agent who shows up at his cabin where he's chopping wood.

[42:17] And he's got a long beard.

[42:18] And you're like, we need you for another mission.

[42:20] And he's like, no, I can't do it again.

[42:22] And then, but instead of going out for the mission, he has you sit down for like three hours and kind of like, like lays the whole story out for you so that you know how badly he got hurt on that last mission.

[42:32] And then you walk away and you're like, yeah, maybe you shouldn't.

[42:35] Yeah.

[42:36] Oh, okay.

[42:36] Like I totally get why you don't want to do this mission now.

Dan McCoy

[42:39] I mean, hearing all this makes me feel kind of guilty for basically everyone involved in any movie we've made fun of over the years.

[42:48] I'm sorry, Chris.

[42:49] I'm sorry, Chris Weitz.

[42:50] I'm sorry.

[42:51] You know.

[42:52] Name another person.

S3

[42:53] Name another person who's involved in a movie we did over the years.

[42:56] Yeah, I guess that's true.

[42:57] I think you guys do a nice job of separating the actors from it.

[43:02] Even in your New Mutants episode last week, you were.

[43:04] Yeah.

[43:04] And Taylor Joy took a shot on accident.

[43:06] See, I didn't see the movie.

[43:07] But it seemed like you guys didn't really hit.

[43:09] But you were acknowledged that she's a great actress and probably the next big thing that, you know, is going to be in all these great movies.

[43:14] And Queen's Game is great.

[43:15] So I think you guys do a nice job of keeping it focused on where the mockery should be focused on.

Dan McCoy

[43:21] Well, I hope so.

[43:22] I mean, even like, I mean, you know, even the screenplay stuff, though.

[43:26] I say that I'm more inclined to blame the script.

[43:30] But, you know, almost all of these movies, unless it's something like, you know, like Food Fighter or whatever, some, like, fringe nonsense.

[43:39] Like, almost all these movies are from people who have done work before and will do good work again.

[43:45] And, you know, like, like, I don't want to make fun of, I don't want to, like, dismiss someone unless they're a miserable human being.

[43:56] Like, on the basis of, like, oh, maybe they've had a couple of stinkers in their professional life.

[44:02] I mean, they're but for the grace of God.

[44:04] I know.

S3

[44:05] But if you only let yourself that, you'd just be just Chevy Chase movies, right?

[44:08] And, like, you know, that's a short podcast.

Stuart Wellington

[44:11] That's true.

[44:13] It's a simple podcast.

[44:14] Chasing our own tails with that one.

[44:16] Well, it's called Chase and Chevy.

[44:18] Oh.

[44:18] And you just.

[44:19] Yeah.

[44:19] I mean, that's a little on the nose, but okay.

[44:21] Welcome to episode five of Modern Problems, where we end our.

Elliott Kalan

[44:26] Modern Problems Minute.

[44:27] We're talking about.

[44:27] Minute by minute.

[44:28] We're talking about Modern Problems again.

[44:30] Join us on our other podcast, Cops and Podcastersons.

[44:35] The.

[44:35] Oh, no.

[44:36] So I think.

[44:37] And the other thing to keep in mind also is that, like, there's a certain.

[44:40] I mean, the thing that I loved about Cats, the most joyful movie going experience I had in the year 2020.

[44:45] Oh, so good.

[44:46] Which, again, not not saying that much since I only went to the theater twice, I think, in the year 2020.

[44:51] But the other one was Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, which I also loved.

[44:54] So, like, that's, you know.

[44:55] But that the.

[44:57] To see someone try so hard for something big and fail at it is.

[45:04] It gives you kind of like the reverse hope of like, oh, this is better than living in a world where every movie was just kind of like mediocre.

[45:10] Where every movie was just kind of like the kinds of thrillers that were churned out in the 90s.

[45:15] Where it's like, okay, this is fine.

[45:17] Okay.

[45:17] Oh, another one of these.

[45:18] Great.

[45:19] And now.

[45:19] Oh.

[45:20] Now the Secretary of Defense is going to tell them why they need to save all those hostages.

[45:23] Okay.

[45:23] Now they're doing it.

[45:25] And Harrison Ford says, get off my plane.

[45:27] And the movie's over.

[45:28] Okay.

[45:28] That was acceptable.

[45:29] Like, you want to live in a world where people are trying and failing because it means that they are also trying and sometimes succeeding.

[45:37] And rather than not trying.

Dan McCoy

[45:39] Well, and also the extravagant foolishness of it is endearing.

Elliott Kalan

[45:43] I mean, in Cats' case, too.

[45:44] The fact that it is that you can in every frame of that strange creature, you're like, oh, the people making this really cared about Cats.

[45:54] Like, they really.

[45:55] Like, they wanted to do this right.

[45:56] And maybe there is no way to do this right on film.

[45:58] But they tried it.

[46:00] And all the performers, like, you can't fault them in that one because they're, you know, they're doing exactly what you're talking about, Joel, where they're like, yeah, I'm making myself vulnerable and I'm doing this role.

[46:09] Like, I'm going to be this cat.

[46:10] I'm not going to wink at the audience and be like, isn't it dumb that I'm, like, rubbing my head on another person's head and we have CGI fur all over our bodies?

Stuart Wellington

[46:17] Yeah, I'm not going to Billy Zane my way through this movie.

Elliott Kalan

[46:21] Although now I want to see Billy Zane's Cats where he does all the parts.

[46:24] Wow.

Stuart Wellington

[46:26] But, you know.

Elliott Kalan

[46:27] I want every, if every movie could have the passion of Cats or Val Kilmer's Mark Twain show that he used to do, like, then, yeah, I want everything to have that passion.

[46:36] Where you're like, this is not working, but I feel like you are, you're entering a sort of mystic ecstatic state at how much you are trying to make it work.

S3

[46:44] Yeah, and, you know, Cats was, I saw it opening night at the Arclight at a 10 p.m. screening with about half, a crowd was about half gay.

[46:55] Everyone was familiar with the musical.

[46:58] Everyone was a little drunk and kind of knew what we were in for.

[47:01] I was sitting next, we were, it was a group of people who loved bad movies.

[47:04] I was sitting next to guys who do post for a living and they would be whispering in my ears, like, look in the back right corner, it's not rendered.

[47:12] And everyone's drunk, everyone's singing along, everyone's shouting.

[47:16] I was, I kept shouting, what size are they?

[47:19] That was my bit, which was killing, because they kept, you know, they were changing from scene to scene.

[47:24] And then a sort of collective mania hit by the time Skimbleshanks came around and we were all drunk.

[47:30] Everyone started standing and stomping to Skimbleshanks and we, the collective delirium.

[47:36] And I've been chasing that high, you know, that was, I had that about two months before the pandemic.

[47:42] And, uh, I don't know.

[47:44] That was the happiest I have been, uh, you know, I can remember being physically in my body.

[47:50] So like, you know, I can't, whatever they did to do that, thank them.

[47:54] I think every one of them, I think Rebel Wilson, James Corden for the improvs that clearly should not have been included.

[48:00] But Tom Hooper thought they were funny.

Dan McCoy

[48:04] I think, I think I don't want to be like, uh, like suddenly turning cats into Woodstock and be like, oh man, you had to be there.

[48:11] But the thing is, there was something really special about seeing cats like early enough in its run that not everyone knew how crazily, catastrophically strange it was.

[48:25] Pun intended, catastrophic, Dan.

[48:28] But if you, if you saw it early on, like there would be a good portion of the audience who was there to see cats because they thought cats was going to be good.

[48:38] And then just like the feeling of like, as everyone realized the movie they were watching, but still like sort of like over time gave into it.

[48:49] And we're like, you know what, this is a better experience than what I originally intended to have.

Stuart Wellington

[48:55] You know, in 2019, uh, in the movie Hustlers, there's this amazing moment, this like pure moment of joy when, uh, Usher shows up at the strip club.

[49:06] And little did I know that 2020 would top that moment of joy with a railroad, a railroad cat just showing up.

Elliott Kalan

[49:13] There's something about that moment when Skimbleshanks shows up.

[49:16] It's the, it's the moment every movie wants to have when the movie is starting to like lose a little bit of steam.

[49:21] And then suddenly there's this huge shot in the arm and you're like, what?

[49:24] How do I have more energy than when the movie started?

[49:26] Like what is going on here?

[49:27] He's so, he's so bunched.

S3

[49:29] He's got the little cat mustache and he's got the little cat suspenders.

Elliott Kalan

[49:34] The idea, the idea of like, he's a railroad cat.

[49:36] We got to make him look as much like a Mario cat as possible.

[49:40] Like if Mario was a cat, he's Skimbleshanks.

Stuart Wellington

[49:42] You immediately got to go Google Skimbleshanks nude to see how muscular his fucking ass is.

[49:49] It's insane.

Dan McCoy

[49:50] Everyone, everyone listening, go, go look out, uh, go find Skimbleshanks, but on the internet, there's a few pictures out there.

[49:58] It's amazing.

S3

[50:00] Not on your work computers.

[50:02] Early on in the pandemic, when Cats first came out to buy, I immediately bought it.

[50:07] And then my wife, um, who I think I went to one screening with, didn't really, didn't really get the whole thing.

[50:13] Did not, is not a huge movie fan, does not like Cats.

[50:17] Was not the bonding experience I wanted it to be.

[50:19] But my five-year-old, um, really liked it sincerely.

[50:24] And it was like the perfect, like that's who should like Cats.

[50:28] Perfect, pun intended.

[50:30] And so, and so, like, it was about maybe three weeks or four weeks into the pandemic, into quarantine, where we're initially, you know, the first wave of going crazy.

[50:40] Me and her, we would watch it together and then we would both go nuts when Skimbleshanks came out.

Elliott Kalan

[50:47] Well, it's like, it's, and there's something about how in the movie, in the movie when he shows up, the other cats are like, Skimbleshanks?

[50:53] Fucking Skimbleshanks is here?

[50:55] Like, Skimbleshanks is here?

[50:55] Like, they can't, they cannot contain themselves.

Dan McCoy

[50:57] I think it's after a couple of, like, more downbeat numbers and, like, he, like, almost literally bursts through the wall like the Kool-Aid man.

[51:04] Like, he just appears, like, up, like, you know, window or something.

Stuart Wellington

[51:07] He's like, hey, Skimbleshanks!

S3

[51:09] That's one of the internal, one of the few internal logic problems with Cats the movie is, clearly, Skimbleshanks should win the fucking contest of the Jellicle Ball.

[51:19] Is there a better cat?

[51:20] We've seen all of the songs.

[51:22] The whole movie is one by one.

[51:23] The cats come out and say, like, I'm Dimble Damble and I do the Dimble Damble dance.

[51:27] And you're like, okay.

[51:28] And then this fucker comes out, blows the roof off the place, and gets no consideration for the Jellicle Ball.

[51:35] He should be in the goddamn hot air balloon.

Elliott Kalan

[51:37] They like him too much.

[51:38] They don't want to leave.

[51:39] Here's my theory about Skimbleshanks.

[51:41] Skimbleshanks has been chosen to go to the Heaviside Lair so many times that he has taken himself out of consideration.

[51:46] And he just shows up to perform as, like, the halftime show to be like, yeah, I could win again, but I don't even want it.

[51:51] Take it.

[51:52] I just wanted to show you that I could win if I try.

S3

[51:54] He's just been reincarnated a thousand times like the Dalai Lama.

[51:57] Like, he just keeps going up and coming back down just to, like, be one among us.

Elliott Kalan

[52:01] I like the theory.

[52:02] Well, because they bring his mustache and some other mustaches to a kitten.

[52:06] And they have the kitten kind of see which one it paws at.

[52:09] Yeah.

[52:09] And when it picks his mustache, they know that this is the reincarnated Dolly Skimbleshanks.

S3

[52:14] They put a little railway in front of him and he just starts tip-tapping away and they're like, there we go.

[52:19] We have found our Skimbleshanks.

Elliott Kalan

[52:21] There's a moment when they're all on the train where all the other cats who are not Skimbleshanks go, woo, woo.

[52:28] And you can see in that moment, even the characters in Cats are looking at each other being like, can you believe what a good time we're having?

[52:34] Like, they realize the movie has gone insane.

[52:37] And they're loving it.

Stuart Wellington

[52:38] Yeah, that was all improv.

[52:40] Everybody was just super into it.

Elliott Kalan

[52:43] Well, that's the thing about Cats the Movie.

[52:44] If people don't know, it's an all improv movie.

[52:46] They just got together on the set and they just made it up.

Dan McCoy

[52:48] Well, Elliot, you know, last year around this time you made a joke about having a yearly Cats show.

[52:56] And I think we kind of did.

[52:57] You guys got to do it.

[52:58] I'm sorry, Natalie.

[52:59] I'm sorry, Jenny, that we didn't have you back.

Elliott Kalan

[53:02] And also Hallie, who was very mad that she was not on the Cats episode.

[53:05] And I said, you'll be on it when we talk about Cats again.

[53:08] And apparently it's not.

[53:08] Listen, there's more.

S3

[53:09] There's more.

[53:10] I don't want to take away anyone's opportunity to talk about Cats.

[53:14] You guys can do another special episode.

[53:16] I think the audience will support it.

Elliott Kalan

[53:19] I don't know.

[53:20] After you talk about Skimbleshanks, after you have the chocolate cake, you're not going to go back for the appetizer.

[53:26] We're not going to go back and talk about Bustopher Jones after we gave it all up on Skimbleshanks.

S3

[53:32] It's not fun to be an actor in a bad movie, especially when you care.

[53:36] And so I wrote a pilot with Topher Grace that we sold but never got made.

[53:41] And we were talking about things.

[53:43] And he sort of talked about it's similar to the Gary story of just how he's like Topher is a hardcore nerd.

[53:52] He likes all of the nerdy comic book stuff.

[53:54] He likes all of the – he does, Stuart, and this might be of your interest.

[54:01] He does recut movies in an avid in his basement.

[54:04] That's what he does.

[54:05] So he has a – he's famously, somewhat famously, has a one movie version of the prequels that he cut down.

[54:13] Wow.

[54:13] And when we were working together, he was working on a one movie version of The Hobbit, which I was very excited about because I was like, that's probably the best version.

[54:25] The one without the dishwashing song.

Stuart Wellington

[54:27] Just two hours of the barrel – the barrel scene.

Elliott Kalan

[54:30] Just on a loop.

[54:31] Just two hours of them singing while they throw plates around Bilbo.

[54:34] And he goes, huh?

[54:35] What?

[54:35] Huh?

S3

[54:36] Just a half an hour of the barrel's getting stuck and then having to like push against a wall to get back down on the river.

[54:43] So, yeah.

[54:44] So he – that's what he does for his spare time.

[54:46] You know, another little secret behind the business.

[54:50] Very few actors know how to work in Avid and do it for their own amusement.

[54:55] And, like, he does it because he just, like – he likes to – he just likes old classic movies and he likes comic books and he likes, you know, the sci-fi stuff and, like, genre.

[55:05] And, like, that's one of the things.

[55:07] We were working on a genre thing and, like, that's where his passion is.

[55:10] And him getting to be in Spider-Man 3 was, like, a dream come true for him.

[55:14] And he just talked about the excitement of getting the role.

[55:18] If we all remember back to those Halcyon days, Spider-Man 2 was the pinnacle of genre cinema at the time.

[55:25] So to be the new villain in the third one, he was just –

Stuart Wellington

[55:30] I think possibly still it might be my favorite superhero movie.

[55:32] Yeah, still my favorite superhero movie.

Elliott Kalan

[55:34] Either that or Superman 4, but for different reasons.

S3

[55:38] And I think coming off 2, there's no way you think 3 is going to be the movie that comes off of that movie, you know?

[55:45] And so he was just – he was so excited.

Elliott Kalan

[55:48] You certainly don't think, hmm, I think Sam Raimi is going to completely lose interest in these characters.

S3

[55:55] And, you know, what he basically – without getting into too much detail – what he basically described is, like, he showed up to set and, like, his excitement was not matched by the rest of the crew and cast and director.

[56:07] And it just instantly was sort of like, oh, this is one of those slogs.

[56:13] And then you're like, well, maybe it'll cut together like, you know, butter and, like, it'll be great.

[56:17] And then you go to the premiere and you go, oh, no, it's not.

[56:21] And then, you know, now when they do the listicles of, like, worst comic book characters, it's, like, the picture of him with the tips.

[56:28] And, like, the tips weren't his idea, the frosted tips, you know?

[56:31] Yeah.

[56:32] It wasn't – it wasn't like – he was like, this is my interpretation of Venom.

[56:36] Sony, you know, you either – you go with me or I bounce.

Elliott Kalan

[56:41] Look, look, look, I've done a lot of work on my own preparing to play Venom before now.

[56:45] I've just been slathering myself with oil every day to feel what it's like to have a symbiote covering your body.

[56:51] And let's – we're just going to do – like, it must feel – I mean, one Venom is such a super cool character.

[56:58] And to be like, I get to play this character and the director of the movie is like, yeah, I don't care.

[57:02] Maybe he just falls out of the sky next to Spider-Man.

[57:05] And then – and that's how the costume gets to him and jumps on him.

[57:08] And you're like, are you not going to put any extra effort in?

[57:10] Like, it literally just falls out of the sky and lands next to him?

[57:12] Okay.

[57:13] I guess – but then my character gets a lot of – gets a lot of attention, right?

[57:17] No.

[57:18] The first time we see you as Venom, you're literally just going to be kind of like walking across a wall in an alleyway.

[57:23] So I get a big reveal?

[57:24] Not really.

[57:24] The audience is going to be like, oh, did I just see Venom for the first time?

[57:27] I didn't realize.

[57:29] Hold on a sec.

[57:30] Oh, poor Topher.

S3

[57:32] And I think, you know, it's just – I think it's useful for people who love bad movies and people who love, you know, the podcast.

[57:37] This is just to remember that, like, most times people are busting their fucking ass, even on something they know isn't very good.

[57:46] Just be out of professional – a sense of professional duty, at a sense of, like, the passion for the art.

[57:53] And then a thousand things out of your control happen and it becomes Spider-Man 3.

[57:59] Yeah.

Dan McCoy

[57:59] So you're saying we should laugh all the harder at them when they fail, knowing how much of themselves they've invested in this spotlight.

[58:06] Yeah.

S3

[58:07] It's a real accurate representation of how bad they are.

[58:09] They were really trying to run and they tripped.

[58:12] You know, that's what's funny.

[58:13] If they were just walking, it's not as funny.

Elliott Kalan

[58:15] Yeah.

[58:16] I think you're making a good point.

[58:18] It's something we should all keep in mind as we try to be the best people we can be and the best movie fans we can be.

[58:23] And Dan and Stu, I think we should keep that in mind as we go on to the next movie we're going to do an episode about, which is Hillbilly Elegy.

[58:30] Uh-oh.

Stuart Wellington

[58:31] Wah, wah, wah.

Dan McCoy

[58:35] Yeah, it is, as our guests observed earlier, getting late over here, so we should unfortunately wrap up.

[58:44] And we will thank you very heartily for being on here.

[58:49] And I will ask you if you have anything to plug shortly thereafter.

[58:54] Shortly after Elliot quickly plugs our live show, which is the evening of when this is coming out.

[59:04] Well, I think you just did a great job right there.

[59:06] That's the evening.

[59:09] Somebody just hit the fucking nitrous button.

[59:11] Tickets will be available.

[59:14] Tickets will be available right up until showtime at, what is it, theflophousepodcast.simpleticks.com, I think.

[59:24] Is that right, Elliot?

Elliott Kalan

[59:25] Yes, Dan, that's right.

[59:26] Tonight, the night that this episode is released.

[59:29] If you're listening to it the day after it was released, sorry you missed it, but maybe you didn't.

[59:32] Allow me to explain.

[59:34] We'll be watching and talking about, well, we already watched it.

[59:36] We'll just be talking about Teen Wolf.

[59:38] That's right.

[59:39] Teenage Wolf, the movie that has everything.

[59:42] Novelty t-shirts, basketball, a very sweaty Michael J. Fox, and incredibly unsafe use of a van.

[59:48] That's right.

[59:49] We'll be talking about Teen Wolf tonight, Saturday, February 6th.

[59:51] That's today at 9 p.m. Eastern, 6 p.m. Pacific.

[59:54] It's going to be like a full Flophouse live show.

[59:56] There's going to be presentations beforehand.

[59:58] We're going to have an audience Q&A at the end somehow if we can get the tech to work, find out and see.

[1:00:02] We've got a couple other special surprises.

[1:00:04] We've got some more segments in this one than we usually do.

[1:00:06] I think you're going to like it.

[1:00:07] It's only $10 a ticket, and if you invited 100 people over to your house and you just paid for one ticket, we can't stop you.

[1:00:13] Please don't.

[1:00:14] Or you know what?

[1:00:15] Do.

[1:00:15] I don't care.

[1:00:15] No, no, no.

[1:00:16] Don't.

Stuart Wellington

[1:00:16] It's a super spreader event.

Elliott Kalan

[1:00:18] You know, now is a bad time to invite 100 people over to your house.

[1:00:20] We don't be responsible for that.

[1:00:22] But from a financial point of view, just do whatever.

[1:00:23] So anyway, that's theflophouse.simpleticks.com.

[1:00:26] Don't put the www in.

[1:00:28] Remember we told you that's going to mess up that URL.

[1:00:30] Why are you mentioning it now?

[1:00:31] I'm sorry.

[1:00:32] It's mixed messages.

[1:00:33] Just go to theflophouse.simpleticks.com.

[1:00:35] Tickets will be available basically up to the time the show is on, and if you cannot watch it tonight, that is okay.

[1:00:42] The video will be archived for one week, one week.

[1:00:45] We'll be able to archive that video, and you'll still have access to it.

[1:00:49] So buy that ticket.

[1:00:50] Watch it.

[1:00:50] We're talking Teen Wolf.

[1:00:51] It's going to be a lot of fun.

[1:00:53] And I got a special shirt just for the occasion.

[1:00:56] So if you want to see that shirt, you better go to theflophouse.simpleticks.com.

[1:01:01] And I also wanted to say thank you to our guest.

[1:01:03] Thank you, Joel Church Cooper, for coming and spending this time with us and for teaching us a valuable lesson about not being such dicks when we talk about bad movies.

Dan McCoy

[1:01:12] And, yeah, as promised, also, if you have anything to plug, feel free.

S3

[1:01:17] Sure.

[1:01:18] You can follow me on Twitter.

[1:01:19] It's ChurchCooper on Twitter.

[1:01:21] And you can follow me on Letterboxd, which I am really enjoying.

[1:01:25] If all you film nerd fans out there, it kind of has the feel of what Twitter used to be, only even more micro-selected.

[1:01:32] It's just a fun time of people talking about their Criterion channel.

[1:01:36] Or you can follow Dan McCoy and find out what movies he's watching stoned.

[1:01:41] Yes, you can do that.

[1:01:43] Which I like to do.

[1:01:45] So join me on Letterboxd.

[1:01:47] And I just want to say one thing.

[1:01:48] It was a pleasure to be on the show.

[1:01:49] And I also wanted to thank you guys for me and for all the Flophouse fans out there.

[1:01:55] You know, in the pandemic, I tend to be relying on podcasts, probably an unhealthy degree, to know what day it is sometimes.

[1:02:02] And it's been a real pleasure to listen to you guys.

[1:02:06] And it's been nice just to hear the sounds of people having fun and friends talking, which is, you know, something that used to be a huge part of my life.

[1:02:15] And now I kind of only live vicariously through the friendships I hear on podcasts.

[1:02:19] And it's wonderful that I still get that chance.

[1:02:21] So I want to thank you guys for that.

[1:02:23] Thank you.

[1:02:23] That's as touching as it is sad.

[1:02:25] And we appreciate it.

Elliott Kalan

[1:02:28] All right.

[1:02:29] But we're all living in that world.

[1:02:30] That's a world we're all in right now.

Dan McCoy

[1:02:32] Let's sign off.

[1:02:34] Thanks once again to our guest, Joel Church Cooper.

[1:02:37] I'm Dan McCoy.

Elliott Kalan

[1:02:39] I'm Stuart Wellington.

[1:02:40] I'm Elliot Kalin.

[1:02:41] And our guest has been...

[1:02:43] Joel Church Cooper.

[1:02:45] Good night, everyone.

[1:02:46] Bye.

[1:02:47] Bye.

FH Mini #23 - Flop Etiquette

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