Ep.#398 - Ant-Man and the Wasp: Quantumania

[0:00] On this episode, we discuss Ant-Man and the Wasp, Quantum Mania.

[0:07] Are we going to be members of the Kang gang or are we going to be Phant-men?

[0:15] Sorry, I spit out nuts while I was doing that hilarious jerk.

[0:30] Hey everyone, welcome to the Flophouse. I'm Dan McCoy.

[0:47] I'm Stuart Wellington.

[0:50] And I'm Elliot Kaelin. Hey guys, how'd we get so laid back?

[0:55] I don't know, I'm feeling groovy.

[0:58] Because I watched Ant-Man and the Wasp, Quaalude Mania.

[1:04] Really takes the edge off of an endless,

[1:07] seemingly never-ending series of decreasingly quality films.

[1:12] Hey, harsh in my mellow.

[1:19] I don't know who those characters were, but this is a podcast where we watch a bad movie

[1:23] or a movie that maybe didn't get such great reviews on the one hand or maybe got rejected

[1:30] by people. Maybe this is your favorite one, who knows?

[1:33] I like Marvel movies and this is the first one we're doing, so let's see what happens.

[1:38] True. You say, make mine Marvel or make mine M.O.D.O.K., whichever is the matter.

[1:44] I say, mmmmm.

[1:47] Yeah, that mmm stands for make mine M.O.D.O.K. Marvel.

[1:52] Yeah, and we watched Ant-Man and the Wasp, Quantum Mania,

[1:56] the third Ant-Man film in the Ant-Man series. Not his third appearance overall.

[2:04] But let's take a moment, you know what, as we'll get through this episode, you'll see I have mixed

[2:07] feelings about this film. But let's say how nice it is to live in a world where you can say the

[2:12] third Ant-Man film in the Ant-Man series. Yeah.

[2:17] I still kind of wish I'd seen the Edgar Wright version of that Ant-Man movie.

[2:22] A hundred thousand percent. A hundred thousand million percent.

[2:24] I'm glad that, you know, after Bring It On and Down with Love, he's seeing the success anyway.

[2:32] Yeah. All he had to do was...

[2:33] And Peyton Reed directed all three of them, right?

[2:36] Yes, because in this world to get success currently as the entertainment industry is

[2:42] operated, all you have to do is attach yourself, Remora-like, to an enormous bloated corporate IP

[2:48] so that you can gobble up the crumbs that fall out of that shark's mouth as it swims through the

[2:53] ocean. Worked for Martin Scorsese. Yeah, yeah. When he directed that Harry Potter movie. Yeah,

[3:03] yeah, sure. It was awesome.

[3:08] When Martin Scorsese took on the Hasbro library of titles and did that mask movie for the Hasbro

[3:15] Cinematic Universe. Yeah, yeah, yeah. His wacky races for Hanna-Barbera.

[3:20] I would love, honestly, I would love to see Martin Scorsese direct a wacky race movie.

[3:25] Wacky races or wacky racers? I don't know.

[3:28] Was it the race that was wacky or the racers that were wacky in an otherwise sensible race?

[3:35] Well, I mean, I guess the parameters of the race were basically pretty sensible,

[3:39] right? It was just, you know, your typical whoever gets there first.

[3:43] Yeah, you're puttering around through space.

[3:46] Yeah, I mean, aren't we all kind of puttering through space?

[3:49] I know I am. These days, forget about it.

[3:52] The older I get. So we're talking about Ant-Man movies today, right? Or one in particular.

[3:59] Guys, as we said, this is the first time we've done an actual MCU Marvel movie. We've done,

[4:04] I feel like every Spider-Man villain's been off.

[4:08] And a bunch of DC.

[4:10] Yeah, and we did the Sony Super Marvel characters, but not the Marvel Super Marvel characters,

[4:16] not the ones in the MCU proper. Guys, why do you think this is that we've taken so long to

[4:20] get to an MCU movie? I mean, because they've all basically

[4:23] been pretty good. And I mean, like I, you know, and pretty good, well, not great is enough to

[4:29] avoid our ire most of the time. I feel like there's been a relatively high

[4:34] level of quality throughout the Marvel series. Now, that high level quality is sometimes hurt

[4:40] by the repetitiveness of the films. Yes.

[4:43] But it's mostly enjoyable most of the time, right, Stu?

[4:46] I think Scott Tobias on a podcast described the Marvel movies as having a kind of low ceiling,

[4:53] but a kind of high basement. Like the best are not, you know, the best movie of the year or

[4:59] anything, but the worst are rarely that bad. Like they're pretty similar.

[5:04] Yeah, but pretty like they all kind of hit in the same zone.

[5:08] It's rare that I'll watch a Marvel movie and I'll feel the kind of despair that I feel watching

[5:12] some of the DC movies where I start being like, I just want to, I just want to see colorful

[5:18] characters having adventures. Why is the Flash saving someone from a bus, hitting them, being

[5:24] treated as if there's no beauty in the world and everything is terrible?

[5:28] Why did Jimmy Olsen just get killed?

[5:33] Why did the heroes beat the villain senseless and then chop his unconscious head off of his body

[5:38] as they threw him through a portal at his boss as if to say, you'll get this if you come through.

[5:43] That's not a hero.

[5:45] That did happen though.

[5:46] Yeah.

[5:46] We're not just proving that, wow, that's pretty wild that that really happened, you know?

[5:51] What's amazing in that Justice League movie is they bring Superman to life, it's silly,

[5:55] but then he immediately attacks the other heroes and that could just be a thing that happens.

[6:01] You know, you gotta see how powerful he is.

[6:04] But I feel like in the Marvel movies, everyone has a disagreement and fights,

[6:06] but in the DC movies, the heroes are often trying to murder each other in a way that

[6:11] is a little too real, a little too bleak.

[6:13] Yeah.

[6:14] Guys, are you guys ready to go to the fucking quantum realm?

[6:16] Yeah.

[6:17] I never thought I was and then I did.

[6:20] Now I'm going to make it a confession.

[6:23] I have, this is the first time I've sat through an entire full Ant-Man movie.

[6:27] I watched the first half of the first Ant-Man movie and then around the time he started being

[6:31] like, I've got powers, what?

[6:33] I lost interest.

[6:33] I've seen enough movies where people are, I've seen all the movies that I need to,

[6:37] where someone does something amazing and then looks at their hands like, did I do that?

[6:41] And so, unless it's Urkel and he has powers and he's going, did I do that?

[6:44] I mean, he does have powers.

[6:46] He suddenly has gone like, he goes, got any cheese?

[6:50] And then everyone, half the people in the universe turned into cheese and they've got

[6:53] to stop him.

[6:55] But I saw, and I never saw the second one, Ant-Man and the Wasp, a movie that I'm not

[6:58] sure is real.

[6:59] Did you guys see it?

[7:00] Is that a real movie?

[7:00] I, yeah, I saw, yeah, I mean, I would make a mild argument for the second one being slightly

[7:10] better because I think it's breezier, like it doesn't spend as much time on like setting

[7:17] a bunch of stuff up and leans into like the idea of like, this is just like the zany corner

[7:24] of the universe, like where we do a straight comedy.

[7:26] And then, yeah, there's one thing about those two movies is that they're kind of grounded

[7:31] in the real world of San Francisco and that Scott Lang has problems that are fairly relatable,

[7:41] like in a sense, like they're like, I don't want to say they're like low stakes or anything,

[7:46] but they're almost street level problems where he's an ex-con, he can't get caught

[7:52] fooling around with high tech stuff, so he can't break his parole because if he does

[7:56] that, he will lose custody or lose visitation rights with his daughter, Cassie, even though

[8:02] his ex-wife, Judy Greer, is lovely and amazing and she should be in more TV shows.

[8:07] Why did they cancel her show?

[8:08] Yeah, why did they?

[8:09] And Bobby Cannavale, she was not the reason that they canceled her show.

[8:13] Bobby Cannavale plays her new husband.

[8:17] And you know what?

[8:18] He's actually not that bad of a guy either.

[8:20] So yeah, yeah.

[8:21] I mean, like, and yes, Astaire says they're, you know, I mean, obviously in a real world,

[8:26] there would be tremendous, bizarre threats.

[8:29] But in the MCU, these are small local threats that he's fighting.

[8:34] And, you know, like shrinking and getting big and like they're in like getting a fight

[8:38] in the kitchen.

[8:39] So where is Captain America is like a man out of time and he was frozen.

[8:43] He doesn't understand the modern world.

[8:46] And Iron Man just spent $44 billion to try to prove that he's funny and it's and it's

[8:51] crashing and burning spectacularly.

[8:54] With Ant-Man, it's more like, hey, you know, I just got to I got to get through the day,

[8:57] you know, and maybe every now and then I'll have to fight a bad guy for something.

[9:02] Yeah.

[9:03] And so obviously the thing to do is to put him in a cosmic world where none of that grounded

[9:09] stuff is there.

[9:09] Put him in a two hour episode of Rick and Morty.

[9:13] And it's written by a Rick and Morty writer.

[9:14] And it feels like it was it feels like they kept saying to him, more Rick and Morty, Rick

[9:18] and Morty it up because the minute when they have an alien going, how many holes do you

[9:23] have?

[9:23] And it's like, I don't know.

[9:25] OK, like just this.

[9:27] Let's at a certain point, it really didn't feel like an Ant-Man movie anymore and or

[9:31] even a Marvel movie anymore.

[9:32] It started feeling like what I'll say throughout watered down Star Wars.

[9:37] What is that possible?

[9:38] Watered down.

[9:39] But Star Wars is so strong.

[9:40] How could you water it down?

[9:41] Well, we'll find out.

[9:43] Star Wars has been doing it to itself for years.

[9:46] That's what that Radiohead song was about.

[9:48] You do it to yourself.

[9:50] Star Wars.

[9:52] That's what that is.

[9:53] I don't know that song.

[9:54] You'll can you send me a link or can you just sing the whole song?

[10:00] Can't get the stink out of this added special effect.

[10:05] Meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow.

[10:07] Oh, wow.

[10:08] So, it's a whole song on Star Wars.

[10:10] Most of the Radiohead songs are about Star Wars.

[10:12] I didn't know that.

[10:13] Yeah, yeah.

[10:14] So, Kid A, it's Anakin Skywalker.

[10:16] Oh, that actually makes a lot of sense.

[10:18] Yeah, it makes a lot of sense.

[10:19] Okay, computer, that's what Han Solo tells his computer.

[10:22] When his computer says something that's okay.

[10:24] Yeah.

[10:26] So, Ant-Man and the Wasp, Quantumania.

[10:28] So, the first Ant-Man, Paul Rudd gets Ant-Man powers.

[10:31] Second Ant-Man, I guess they introduce the Quantum Realm,

[10:33] where if you shrink too much, you end up in a microverse.

[10:36] They actually introduce it in the first one, but it's mainly this one.

[10:40] Oh, it's very brief, yeah.

[10:41] Okay, very brief, much like Ant-Man himself.

[10:43] It's mainly a consequence.

[10:44] This is where my wife, Michelle Pfeiffer, went.

[10:47] Dan, you're married to Michelle Pfeiffer?

[10:50] Yeah, don't tell Audrey.

[10:52] And my enemy.

[10:53] I actually do tell.

[10:54] She would be so excited to be honest.

[10:55] She'd be very impressed, yeah.

[10:56] Oh, shit.

[10:57] Also, his enemy, Corey Stahl.

[10:59] Stahl?

[11:00] Stahl goes there?

[11:01] You might know him as the fellow who wears a very convincing hairpiece in The Strain.

[11:06] Oh, okay, yeah.

[11:07] I guess that is what I know him as.

[11:08] Well, he was the villain in the first one, and now he shows up as another character that we all know and love,

[11:15] that has an acronym as a name.

[11:18] Wasn't he a recurring character on Girls also?

[11:20] Corey Stahl?

[11:22] Oh, maybe.

[11:23] I think that's right.

[11:24] Did he play the – he's like an Anderson Cooper type.

[11:29] It has been so long since I've seen an episode of Girls.

[11:33] Maybe I'm getting it wrong.

[11:34] Maybe I'm thinking of somebody else, and there's no way of finding out.

[11:37] It's impossible.

[11:38] I think I'm thinking of somebody else.

[11:39] Oh, no, there he is.

[11:40] Yeah, Dill Harcourt, Girls.

[11:41] Okay, that's what I know him from.

[11:44] Is there a plot to this movie?

[11:46] Well, there kind of isn't, so let's get into it.

[11:49] This is one of those movies that has the least amount –

[11:51] the way this plot is triggered is right out of a 60s Disney Kurt Russell live-action film.

[11:56] So we start.

[11:57] We're in a goopy, glowy fantasy world.

[11:59] Get used to it.

[12:00] We're going to be in a world of goopy, purple caves.

[12:03] Like we're in Prince's subconscious for a lot of this movie.

[12:07] It's just purple everywhere.

[12:08] Everything is kind of flowy and sensuous, but not physically.

[12:11] And everything is kind of Paisley, so that makes sense.

[12:13] Yeah, exactly, yeah.

[12:14] And Michelle Pfeiffer, she is like a – she's like living there as a nomad or a farmer or something.

[12:21] She sees a flare, and she gets a weapon.

[12:23] She runs out, and the weapon is her wasp sting bracelet.

[12:26] And there's a bunch of creatures, and she shoots wasp sting lasers at them.

[12:30] And then she gets saved from the last creature by Jonathan Majors, who's like, what is this place?

[12:36] Bum, bum, bum, end of cold open.

[12:38] Now, guys, do you think Marvel is a little not feeling great about pinning the next phase of their movies on someone who is not necessarily showing his best face to the world at the moment?

[12:48] A bunch of credible accusations against – yeah.

[12:53] Yeah, I think they're shuffling.

[12:55] They're shuffling things around.

[12:57] It's like the DC universe was dealing with their whole Flash debacle, and Marvel is like, well, we don't have to worry about that.

[13:03] And Jonathan Majors is like, hold my beer.

[13:05] It's also interesting because there's another cast member who had some public issues as well, Evangeline Lilly, before making this.

[13:14] There were some issues with her being anti-vaxxer.

[13:17] Yeah, and also some issues with Bill Murray and Onset behavior, and he is in this movie.

[13:22] But with Evangeline Lilly, it feels like they actually took action because the wasp has like four lines in the whole movie.

[13:30] It's crazy that it's called Ant-Man and the Wasp, and there's very little wasp in this movie.

[13:34] There's not much Ant-Man at a certain point, to be honest.

[13:36] There's a fair amount of original wasp. Maybe that's the wasp they switched over to.

[13:39] Maybe. They should have called the movie Ant-Man and Wasp and Friends, Quantumania.

[13:44] The Ant Family.

[13:46] Yeah.

[13:47] I mean Ant Family, Quantumania is a great title for this and a better title.

[13:51] But the movie is very much a – like right from the jump, the movie is selling us on the Kang character.

[13:59] Yes.

[14:00] Including both post-credit scenes are Kang-related.

[14:03] Well, and not to jump too far ahead, but one of the post-credit scenes, you see a bunch of different versions of Kang, and they're all Jonathan Majors.

[14:12] But whatever.

[14:15] It's a gang of Kangs.

[14:17] There's a lot of different versions of him.

[14:19] Then you can have someone else playing.

[14:20] I feel like you can recast it, like whatever.

[14:22] What I thought was weirder was – we'll get to that part – but when all the versions of Kang show up, they're just screaming.

[14:26] Like they're just angry.

[14:28] They're so happy to be –

[14:30] The one guy is like –

[14:32] Different universes have different expressions of excitement.

[14:36] Throughout the movie, Kang has been presented as this very calm, collected, subtle, elegant character.

[14:41] In the end, when you see a whole collection of them, they're just yelling their heads off like children.

[14:46] Well, that's why they exiled him.

[14:47] He was so boring.

[14:49] They're like, you're no fun.

[14:51] Kang, you're bringing the Kang Council down.

[14:53] Could you –

[14:55] You're a real quantum mood killer.

[14:59] So we're in San Francisco.

[15:00] We want a little more quantum mania in here and you're a quantum subdued.

[15:07] So Stuart mentioned it takes place in San Francisco.

[15:09] Paul Rudd is a famous Avenger now.

[15:11] Everybody loves him.

[15:12] He's gone from zero to hero, and he –

[15:16] Hope Van Dyne, the wasp of Angelina Lily, runs the Pym Company very charitably.

[15:21] But Paul's teenage daughter Cassie, she's always standing up for her beliefs in ways that get her thrown in jail or get in trouble with the authorities.

[15:27] She's a real civil disobedient person, and in this case, they have to bail her out of jail because she used Pym particles to shrink a cop car down, which is a funny moment when she just slams it on the ground and it goes boop or something like that.

[15:40] There's a lot of father-daughter tension, and really it's because she's disappointed that her dad, Scott Lang, the ant man, that he's resting on his laurels.

[15:51] He saved the universe, sure, but there's so much more he could be doing with his powers, and he's not helping people.

[15:56] I got to admit.

[15:58] This bothered me a fair amount because great, Cassie.

[16:01] She's out there actively doing stuff.

[16:03] Great.

[16:04] Great for Cassie, but the fact that she's giving ant man such a hard time about the fact that he's enjoying himself for a little while.

[16:13] He did save the universe.

[16:15] He was kind of the most important character in the MCU in Endgame, coming up with the whole idea that helps everything.

[16:23] Just let him be for a while.

[16:25] Let the man relax.

[16:26] I think there's a certain thing.

[16:28] I've thought about this for a while for a lot where it's like in most people's life, if you do one thing that's really heroic, that's amazing, and you'll be celebrated for that forever.

[16:38] But with superheroes, they got to keep doing it over and over again, and I think about how if Captain America saves the world once, people are like, oh, my goodness.

[16:46] You're amazing, and then the world is in trouble again.

[16:48] They're like, Cap, are you going to take care of this?

[16:51] Didn't we have Captain America or something at one point?

[16:54] Isn't this your job?

[16:56] Chop, chop.

[16:57] Can you save the world again?

[16:58] Whereas in the real world, people are not called on to do that more than once, to do something heroic and amazing.

[17:03] But also, you know what?

[17:05] Kids are just looking for reasons to be disappointed in their parents, and what's great about this, Dan, is it creates the sort of character conflict that we can then solve with the story circle, a form of storytelling structure.

[17:19] Rick and Morty's famous story circle structure.

[17:21] I want to make it clear, too.

[17:23] I don't think that this is a – there's too many negatives in this.

[17:29] I think that this is a direction that could have worked.

[17:32] But the movie does not really put in enough legwork to like – just seeing like Paul Rudd happily going around town reading from his biography and doing stuff, I'm not like, this asshole doesn't care anymore.

[17:50] If you want to have this character arc, that's fine.

[17:53] He should walk by an alleyway while some thugs are beating up a guy, and he's like, mm, too busy.

[17:58] Which Spider-Man did once in the movies.

[18:00] Possibly the funniest thing that's ever been in a superhero movie.

[18:03] It's when he just walks by those guys beating that person up.

[18:06] And the guy's like, help!

[18:08] I mean to be honest, the same thing happens in Guardians of the Galaxy 3, right, where they're on counter-Earth.

[18:14] They just walk by people hurting each other, and they're like, oof, animal people, not getting involved.

[18:19] They have bigger fishes to fry at that point.

[18:22] Spider-Man's funnier.

[18:24] Spider-Man is funnier.

[18:26] So it feels like more of a deliberate choice, too, to not get involved.

[18:30] So it feels like a slim – it feels like a TV problem for characters to have.

[18:37] Unless, like you're saying, the stakes are high.

[18:39] Unless he's doing something that's really disappointing her, or she is really involved in a specific thing.

[18:45] I mean the other way they could have gone is like, dad, I'm still mad that you missed my recital while you were saving the world, which is also a fake conference.

[18:53] Yeah, but that would have made me even more annoyed.

[18:55] She makes one catty remark about having to take care of herself, and then she apologizes for it almost immediately.

[19:02] Because it's like, yeah, he didn't want to be gone for five years.

[19:05] And she's a character – Cassie's a character who in the first two movies was a child, and her main role was to serve as a thing that he is trying to keep in his life.

[19:15] Yeah, yeah. It's a real con-air situation.

[19:17] But he tries to interact with her a little bit, but this is kind of like the first time we see this character fully fleshed out, set up to be the next Ant-Man in the MCU.

[19:27] Or the character of stature, which was her codename in the comics.

[19:30] Oh, okay.

[19:31] So when she was a member of the Young Avengers – or it was the –

[19:35] Because she gets really tall like – what does stature mean?

[19:39] Yeah, Avengers Initiative I think is what it was, if I'm remembering correctly.

[19:41] Now, here's the thing. These characters, no one is really fully fleshed out very much in this movie.

[19:48] They don't spend a lot of time giving these characters real personality or at least a distinctive thing about them.

[19:53] It feels – I don't know if you felt this way, but it felt like everyone in the movie kind of had the same – was dipping into the same kind of personality trough.

[20:00] You know, except for Kang, maybe.

[20:02] Michael Douglas has a different personality.

[20:04] The personality of a man who does not seem to want to be there,

[20:08] but still has enough movie star charisma that, you know, he's enjoyable to watch.

[20:14] But all of them take everything they're doing pretty lightly throughout it.

[20:17] They're all cracking wise.

[20:19] Like, they all tell the same kinds of jokes.

[20:21] The aliens they meet in the quantumverse all tell the same kinds of jokes and talk the same way.

[20:25] And Michael Douglas, I did read a thing where he's like,

[20:27] he'd be interested in Hank Ben coming back in Ant-Man 4 if he dies in that movie.

[20:31] Like, he's fully at the point where he's like, kill my character.

[20:34] Like, I don't want to do any more of this.

[20:36] But there's no – it feels like the characters are not really playing off of each other much.

[20:40] And the way that they create conflict is that Cassie is disappointed in her dad

[20:45] and Michelle Pfeiffer is continually not telling her family things that would help them in the moment.

[20:51] And it becomes so excruciatingly infuriating that they're like,

[20:55] well, we're in the quantum zone and we're being attacked by monsters.

[20:57] There's no time to tell, Elliot.

[20:59] There's no time for me to tell you how I know these monsters.

[21:01] I need to protect you somehow even though we're already here.

[21:04] And knowing this stuff would probably be more good anyway.

[21:07] Also, even if she was – if she told them –

[21:09] More good, better is the other word for that.

[21:10] If she told them as they eventually find out, you know what?

[21:12] There's a villain in the quantum zone and we have to keep him trapped there,

[21:15] then maybe Cassie would not build a portal to the quantum zone.

[21:19] Maybe that's something that she would know not to do.

[21:21] But anyway, I guess what I'm saying is characters, they don't always have to do the rational

[21:24] or the right thing.

[21:25] Often characters are best when they don't do the rational or right thing.

[21:27] But this is pretty irrational.

[21:30] It makes me doubt the intelligence of this character.

[21:32] So anyway, Hank has apparently helped –

[21:36] and Hope's mom, Janet Van Dyne, the original Wasp, Michelle Pfeiffer,

[21:40] she's back from the quantum zone, but she doesn't want to talk about it.

[21:42] She never wants to talk about her experiences there.

[21:44] And at first it's treated like trauma, but then eventually it becomes revealed it's more like –

[21:48] it's a dark secret rather than trauma.

[21:51] She's embarrassed.

[21:52] She helped a guy take over the quantum zone.

[21:54] Yeah.

[21:55] So Hank, he helped Cassie build a probe for the quantum realm so he can explore it.

[21:59] And Janet gets very angry at the idea of sending a signal into the quantum zone.

[22:03] She demands they turn it off, but it's too late.

[22:06] It turns into a quantum portal and sucks them all in.

[22:09] That's right.

[22:10] This movie starts up with a machine accidentally going bonkers and sucking them in.

[22:14] Like it's an episode of DuckTales.

[22:16] Like come on, everybody.

[22:17] I like that.

[22:18] And later we're given an explanation for this.

[22:20] But it is so sloppily – or just these characters are being so sloppy.

[22:24] They're being so – they're acting like a Scooby-Doo gang I feel like at this point where they're like,

[22:29] we got this machine.

[22:30] What's it going to do?

[22:31] I don't know.

[22:32] Turn it on.

[22:33] Like is that Freedom Rock?

[22:34] Turn it up.

[22:35] Allow me to turn it on before I explain how it works.

[22:38] Yeah.

[22:39] So they're all sucked in.

[22:40] Now they're in – and they get split up.

[22:42] The Van Dynes slash Pimms are in one place and Scott and Cassie are in another,

[22:46] and they're in kind of a weird mushroom kingdom.

[22:48] And it's getting flashbacks to the Super Mario Bros. movie.

[22:50] Maybe we'll talk about it sometime in the podcast.

[22:52] I do think that we should take a little time now that we've been introduced to the Quantum Zone to talk about the Quantum Zone.

[22:57] Yeah, let's do it.

[22:58] Yeah, sure.

[22:59] Look, I want to offer this disclaimer.

[23:03] I'm going to say some unflattering –

[23:05] You've never been to the Quantum Zone.

[23:07] I'm going to say some unflattering things about the way the movie looks,

[23:11] but I do not think that that is the fault of the artists who worked on it.

[23:15] I think the artists who worked on it are given unreasonable deadlines by Marvel from everything that I've read,

[23:23] that there's a House Marvel style that, like, dampens the sort of brights and the darks and the colors in a way that I'm not wild about.

[23:33] Ironically, since the House Marvel style for decades pretty much was the Jack Kirby style,

[23:38] it's all about bright colors, big, bold shapes, but above all, clarity, like clear, powerful images.

[23:44] And it feels like the Marvel movies are all about kind of muddy colors and dim lighting and things like that.

[23:51] Well, and if you look at past Jack Kirby, if you look at artists like Jim Lee,

[23:55] like artists that were the most repopularized comics, it was all about these very distinctive poses.

[24:02] Yes.

[24:03] Like images that really burn into your head.

[24:06] Iconic images like Marvel was about the characters are super strong and complicated.

[24:11] But a lot of it, you're right, was about like iconic imagery and iconic visual moments.

[24:15] You know, I will say that having seen this in the theater and then rewatched it for this podcast,

[24:23] the computer effects of sort of this realm look so much better actually on my home television than they did in the theater.

[24:32] Well, so you watched it in 4D, so there was water being sprayed in your face constantly.

[24:36] Well, I mean, I just think that I wonder that this like heavily digital film, I mean, I know that we have digital projectors now,

[24:42] but like something about like having a high quality, like modern flat screen television with really black and whatnot,

[24:50] like this very digital look plays well in that environment.

[24:56] I do have a question and you probably already did this.

[24:59] I don't want to be a jerk, but when you're at the theater, did you make sure to turn off the motion smoothing?

[25:03] Oh, shit.

[25:05] You should have done that.

[25:06] You thought Nicole Kidman was moving a little too fast when she said heartbreak feels good in a place like this.

[25:11] I told – I slipped the projectionist 20 bucks.

[25:14] I'm like, please look at – make it look more like a soap opera.

[25:17] Yeah, yeah.

[25:18] You said smooth the shit out of that motion.

[25:20] But I mean like there's like – look, the actual look of the Quantum Zone I have no particular beef with.

[25:25] Like there's a lot of cool stuff.

[25:26] I mean like they take – they just take the general idea of small, and so they've got these things that like look like amoeba or whatever when you're so much smaller than what that would be.

[25:37] But that's fine.

[25:38] I get it.

[25:39] It's cool for –

[25:40] Except I would say I would want them to go with that idea of small more because eventually like it just starts feeling like they're walking around Mos Eisley or Coruscant.

[25:47] Yeah.

[25:48] Like it stops.

[25:49] It feels like – and it's –

[25:51] Well, that's the Kang influence, dude.

[25:53] That's the Kang influence.

[25:54] That's his own boring house style.

[25:55] He loves Star Wars.

[25:57] I mean – and well, I think that's the thing is there's a – just as the personalities of the characters are not particularly distinctive, the image – like the world they're in doesn't feel particularly distinctive.

[26:06] It's not like – I'm like – even the fact like you think about the Star Wars planets, and it's like Endor feels distinctive to you, and it's just a fucking forest.

[26:14] It's just woods.

[26:15] But it's so different from the other stuff you see in Star Wars, and it feels like you're in the woods.

[26:20] Here I was like – if you asked me to imagine the Quantum Zone, I'd be like it's real glowy.

[26:25] Like it's real glowy and kind of amorphous, and there's just aliens kind of walking around, but there's no – I don't have a sense of it.

[26:31] It looks like a Tech Death album cover or something.

[26:34] It doesn't have that distinctive, iconic thing about it where I'm like, oh, that's what the Quantum Zone feels like to me as opposed to – like I'm trying to think of a modern movie that does it really well.

[26:45] But even – you look at everything everywhere all at once, and each of the different worlds she's in feels different from the other worlds that she's in.

[26:53] I can picture those in my mind because – maybe because there's something simple about each of them.

[26:58] Or maybe if like Tarsim had directed the Quantum Zone.

[27:01] If only.

[27:02] Tarsim has not been absorbed into the Marvel universe, and there's – I'm not a huge fan normally of directors that have a distinctive look or feel to their movies being absorbed into IP.

[27:12] But I would love to see Tarsim do a Marvel movie.

[27:14] Oh, man.

[27:15] That would be amazing.

[27:16] But the biggest thing I wanted to say though is like this feels to me like the most expensive green screen movie ever made because there's something about the lighting on the characters versus the lighting in the background.

[27:26] It never quite matches.

[27:28] There's a scene where they're like flying.

[27:30] They're like riding a flying manta ray, and they're all like moving like, whoa, like they're in the Star Trek bridge, but they're all like moving in different – like it doesn't feel like they're interacting with the environment.

[27:41] The manta ray's body is undulating underneath there.

[27:44] Yeah.

[27:45] Yeah.

[27:46] This is what Stuart puts in the incorrectly regarded as goof section on MTV.

[27:50] If you look closely, the manta ray's body is undulating differently on different surface areas.

[27:54] Yeah.

[27:55] No, but I think you're – there's a – like overall, it feels like a movie that had to be done by a certain time, and so a lot of things are being done without that like – that extra special moment of thought, which I know is hard to do when you're working on the third Ant-Man movie.

[28:09] And it's got to be done by a certain time.

[28:11] It's a bigger scale and more effects than usually in those movies.

[28:14] You've got more actors to juggle.

[28:16] Like you're supposed to set up Kang even though he's already been set up by a season of a television show.

[28:22] Like it felt – it also felt weird being like they're kind of hiding Kang, and it's like – I don't know.

[28:28] Do you want me to watch all this shit or do you not want me to watch it?

[28:30] Because if you want me to watch it, I know who fucking Kang is.

[28:33] But if you don't want me to watch it, then don't put out so much.

[28:37] Don't act like I'm supposed to be happy about it.

[28:39] At the theater arguing with the usher.

[28:41] He's like, this movie wants me to believe that I don't know who Kang is already.

[28:44] I know Kang.

[28:45] I know Kang.

[28:46] I saw him in the show.

[28:47] Anyway, it's – so back to the plot.

[28:51] Scott and Cassie get attacked by a glowing tentacle monster or amoeba or something, but they get saved by a bunch of sci-fi weirdos.

[28:56] And we're going to get to know these sci-fi weirdos.

[28:58] They're the rebels.

[28:59] And Janet –

[29:00] You got a laser face.

[29:02] You got a –

[29:03] No, I mean it is a character with a laser for a face.

[29:06] It's not laser face.

[29:07] Oh, okay.

[29:08] And I'm sure some of these are characters from the comics, but I did not recognize any of them.

[29:12] And if you don't recognize any of them, Joe Sixpack, average American, has no idea.

[29:19] I'm starting to get the feeling I had when I got off a train when the Green Lantern movie came out.

[29:23] I got off a train in Grand Central Station, and I saw a poster that just had a picture of Abin Sur from the Green Lantern movie, and it just said Abin Sur underneath.

[29:30] And I'm like, if my mom gets off a train, is she supposed to look at that and be like, oh, cool, Abin Sur?

[29:35] I can't wait to see that movie.

[29:37] No, they're introducing you to Abin Sur.

[29:39] They're like, hey, this guy, you see him?

[29:41] You see what he looks like?

[29:42] That's Abin Sur.

[29:43] And so when you encounter him later, you can call him by name.

[29:45] You don't confuse him with Gnort or whatever.

[29:47] Yeah.

[29:48] I mean how could you confuse him with Gnort?

[29:49] He's hilarious.

[29:50] But here's – and just – that brings me back to one other thing I'm going to say before I get back to the plot, which is that – so I just saw Guardians of the Galaxy 3, which I enjoyed a lot.

[29:58] There are things that I didn't –

[30:00] love about it, but I enjoyed it a lot.

[30:01] And it just reminded me like, oh, that was a movie

[30:04] that was introducing new characters for most people.

[30:06] Most people were not familiar with those characters,

[30:08] but they all had like distinct personality quirks.

[30:10] I mean, over time their voices have gotten a little similar,

[30:13] which happens to all characters who share stories together.

[30:16] But like, that's what I'm missing from some of these,

[30:18] from some of these movies.

[30:19] It was like distinct character voices and distinct looks.

[30:23] Also, this reminds me,

[30:24] I'm glad you brought up Guardians 3

[30:26] because I wanted to say like, to me, like,

[30:29] those are the poles maybe of this latest phase,

[30:33] like with Quantum Mania at the,

[30:36] towards the bottom and Guardians 3 at the top.

[30:38] And like, think about Guardians of the Galaxy,

[30:42] Volume 3, like, sure, there's kind of a little bit

[30:47] of a cosmic repercussion for like stuff that's going on.

[30:51] But the main like through line that you were following

[30:54] is this character that we know and love is in danger

[31:01] and it is a personal issue like that they have to save him,

[31:06] you know, and-

[31:06] You're talking about Adam Warlock?

[31:08] Yeah, that better be who you're talking about.

[31:10] I mean, I will admit Dan, no, I think you're right.

[31:12] There's a personal stake to it, yeah.

[31:14] Yeah, I felt so much more engagement is what I'm saying

[31:17] about like what's happening and emotionally caring

[31:19] about them like getting through their mission

[31:22] than this movie where I'm just like,

[31:24] I mean, to be fair, honestly,

[31:26] this movie makes a joke at the end.

[31:27] One of my favorite parts about like,

[31:29] was this a good thing that we did, but we'll get there.

[31:31] Yeah.

[31:32] But also it's not totally clear.

[31:34] I mean, I guess their goal is to go home,

[31:35] but even that doesn't seem like

[31:37] they're that worried about it.

[31:38] But I will admit with Guardians,

[31:40] I was glad that every now and then they'd be like,

[31:42] remember, we got to do this for Rocket.

[31:43] Cause I'd be like, oh yeah, that right,

[31:44] that's why you're doing this.

[31:45] I kind of forgot with all the hubbub,

[31:47] like what the through line of the movie is.

[31:49] But it was-

[31:49] It is interesting that like in the first two Ant-Man movies,

[31:53] the worst thing that could happen

[31:55] is you could go to the quantum realm

[31:56] cause there's no coming back from that.

[31:58] And then in this one, they're like,

[31:59] ah, we're here, let's fuck around for a little bit.

[32:03] Yeah.

[32:03] There's never a sense of like, oh no, we're trapped here.

[32:06] We're here forever.

[32:07] Because they got Michelle Pfeiffer out.

[32:09] So I guess they know it's not a one-way trip,

[32:11] but at the same time,

[32:11] the level of danger feels incredibly minimal.

[32:16] Now what about the level of danger fields?

[32:18] Also incredibly minimal.

[32:20] Everyone in the movie gets respect.

[32:22] Lenny.

[32:23] So anyway-

[32:24] Well, M.O.D.O.K.

[32:26] M.O.D.O.K. gets no respect.

[32:27] He gets no respect, and we'll talk about that.

[32:29] My issues with the portrayal of M.O.D.O.K.

[32:31] If they had recast M.O.D.O.K. in the 80s,

[32:34] Rodney Dangerfield would have been a good M.O.D.O.K.

[32:36] Oh, he would have been an amazing M.O.D.O.K.

[32:39] That would have been great.

[32:40] Or, what's his name?

[32:43] Of Lenny and Squiggy fame?

[32:45] Not Michael McKeon.

[32:47] The other one.

[32:48] I have no idea.

[32:50] The listeners know who I'm talking about.

[32:52] Anyway, so Janet is like,

[32:55] they're like, Janet, what's going on?

[32:56] And she's like, I don't want to talk about it.

[32:58] And it's like, well, we're in the quantum realm.

[32:59] Can you explain some stuff?

[33:01] But she refuses to.

[33:02] And she just tells them that it's a whole universe

[33:04] of worlds within worlds,

[33:06] which is the least helpful thing she could say.

[33:08] Doesn't really seem to be true.

[33:10] Also, I mean, they have nothing but time

[33:13] to tell the story now.

[33:14] Time.

[33:16] They have to walk huge, long paths

[33:19] and deal with the natives.

[33:22] They've got a bunch of,

[33:23] she can tell the story of what happened.

[33:25] I don't know why she puts it off so long.

[33:27] You know who also would have made a great M.O.D.O.K.

[33:29] is Gilbert Gottfried.

[33:30] He would have been a fantastic M.O.D.O.K.

[33:31] Oh, man.

[33:31] Oh, yeah.

[33:32] And meanwhile, Scott and Cassie end up at this,

[33:35] the alien weirdos take them to this village

[33:37] and they make them drink this translation ooze,

[33:39] which allows them to understand everybody.

[33:41] And the Van Dynes run into some Tuscan raider types.

[33:44] And Janet goes through a knife-fighting ritual

[33:47] with one of them.

[33:48] And it turns out they're friends of hers.

[33:50] And they give them a flying manta ray to ride.

[33:53] And the aliens are like goofy aliens.

[33:56] They meet, one of them is Quaz,

[33:57] a telepath who's played by,

[33:59] it's Chidi from The Good Place, right?

[34:01] Yeah.

[34:02] And it's one of those,

[34:04] and like Scott, and he's a telepath

[34:06] and he keeps hearing Scott saying

[34:07] embarrassing things in his lines.

[34:09] It's a very like one joke.

[34:12] This telepathic character is only used

[34:14] for a comic relief, the whole movie,

[34:17] and it's the same joke over and over again.

[34:19] You scoffed at the seven holes thing

[34:21] or the holes thing.

[34:23] But I, or like how many holes do you have in your body?

[34:26] But I do like them that like Chidi, I'm sorry.

[34:30] I would love to call him by his real name.

[34:33] No, just his character name.

[34:35] Remember the character.

[34:36] He shows up and is like, he has seven holes.

[34:40] And I like, you know, Paul Rudd.

[34:41] William Jackson Harper.

[34:43] He was a three name name.

[34:45] I can only remember two names at a time.

[34:48] Paul Rudd has this like look at his face.

[34:49] He's like checking the math.

[34:53] I think that's pretty solid as a joke.

[34:55] Yeah, I mean, it is.

[34:56] I just, it's one of those things where like,

[34:57] then if that alien character went on

[34:59] to do anything other than talk about holes.

[35:01] Yes.

[35:02] It's just every character, it's like an SNL sketch.

[35:03] Every character has one game that they play forever.

[35:06] I didn't like, there's like this sort

[35:10] of barbarian woman character.

[35:12] That's Jentora.

[35:13] Jentora, who feels like a joke on the idea

[35:16] of like what people like executives think

[35:19] a strong female character is where it's just like,

[35:21] well, it's literally just make her the strongest

[35:23] and then give her nothing else.

[35:26] Yeah.

[35:27] I feel like in the recent Dungeons and Dragons movie,

[35:29] like Michelle Rodriguez plays a version of that character

[35:31] and it's good because like,

[35:33] she has a full character and personality.

[35:36] And here it's just like, I don't know, she's strong.

[35:38] But I mean, nobody gets that much personality

[35:40] in the movie.

[35:40] But I agree.

[35:41] It's doubly annoying for that reason.

[35:43] And she's like, oh, you come from the same world

[35:47] as the Conqueror.

[35:48] He'll do anything to find you.

[35:50] I don't know why she would jump to that conclusion.

[35:52] The Kang, I don't think has ever shown

[35:54] any interest otherwise.

[35:56] And also like, no, and they go through

[35:58] so many circumlocutions throughout the movie

[36:00] to avoid saying Kang until like the last minute

[36:03] when they have to.

[36:03] It's always he or him or the Conqueror.

[36:06] And it's something that they do in comic books a lot too.

[36:08] But it's always bugged me where it's like,

[36:10] you will know when the time is right.

[36:11] Well, tell me now.

[36:13] It can't hurt me to have information right now.

[36:15] One of these days though, it's gonna be Dr. Doom

[36:17] and you're gonna be so excited.

[36:19] I would.

[36:20] Like you're gonna turn around and be like, ah.

[36:22] Except they're gonna like, they're gonna tease it so much.

[36:26] I mean, that was the exciting thing about Thanos

[36:27] was there was almost no teasing.

[36:29] It was just, master, did they court death?

[36:31] And you knew it was Thanos

[36:32] because he's in love with death

[36:33] even though they didn't go with that

[36:34] in the character eventually.

[36:35] And it turns out, I was like, Thanos?

[36:37] But at this point also, no Marvel character I think

[36:39] appearing in a movie would surprise me

[36:41] as much as Thanos did in that moment.

[36:42] Where I was like, this is a character

[36:44] I never expected to see in a movie

[36:46] because he has no mainstream public knowledge at that point.

[36:50] But now every Marvel character's,

[36:51] when Eros, Star Fox is showing up.

[36:53] Yeah, when you have, when it's just taken for granted

[36:57] that the audience is gonna love hearing

[37:00] the X-Men theme song from the 90s

[37:02] as Patrick Stewart rolls out in a yellow hover chair,

[37:04] then there's nothing.

[37:05] There's nothing I can't accept.

[37:06] Mort the Dead Teenager's gonna show up at some point.

[37:08] You know, like Night Nurse is gonna show up

[37:10] or maybe she has already, probably.

[37:12] Yeah, that sounds right.

[37:13] And it stops, at a certain point it stops being,

[37:17] can you believe we're getting all these characters

[37:19] in these movies?

[37:20] And it becomes more IP.

[37:21] Scrape the bottom of the barrel, get more IP.

[37:23] Where's the slapstick movie?

[37:24] Where's the movie about,

[37:26] where's the Great Power Pack movie?

[37:26] Great Lakes Avengers.

[37:27] Yeah, where's the great, I mean,

[37:28] I would love to write a Great Lakes Avengers movie.

[37:30] I've written them in the comics.

[37:32] But yeah, there's no character that isn't IP-able.

[37:36] So anyway.

[37:36] Kurt Vonnegut's slapstick?

[37:38] So, what?

[37:40] I said Kurt Vonnegut's slapstick?

[37:42] Yeah, Kurt Vonnegut's slapstick

[37:43] starring the Marvel characters.

[37:47] So the Pimms, they end up in a Coruscant,

[37:50] Mos Eisley looking place full of aliens.

[37:53] Can I, sorry, I just, like this sequence so clearly

[37:57] wants to be the cantina sequence of this movie.

[38:00] Yes, they literally go to a bar, yeah.

[38:02] And I know that it's impossible for anything

[38:04] to have that impact again, really.

[38:07] But I was thinking about Star Wars,

[38:09] and that is like, it takes so long

[38:15] to see any aliens in Star Wars, really.

[38:18] And when we see a new one, we spend time with it.

[38:21] Like, we like the Jawas show up,

[38:23] and then we spend a little time with the Jawas,

[38:24] and then like, you know, we see the Tusken Raiders.

[38:27] And then all of a sudden, like halfway through the movie,

[38:30] it's like, yeah, and here's an explosion of aliens,

[38:32] you know, and there's enough like,

[38:34] but like, I'm not amazed by this cantina scene

[38:37] if we have already been through so much like goop and glop,

[38:40] but.

[38:41] I feel like, yeah, right, it's, the movie keeps,

[38:43] there are a lot of scenes where it just shows

[38:44] a bunch of aliens, and that the impact is dulled

[38:47] for us having seen so many, but also like,

[38:50] we saw this in a famous movie, Star Wars,

[38:53] and then Star Wars did it a couple more times

[38:55] in the sequels, and it's like,

[38:56] just come up with a new place for them to meet.

[38:59] Like, maybe don't have them meet at a bar.

[39:01] Maybe have them meet somewhere different.

[39:02] I don't know, I think bars are pretty cool, guys.

[39:04] Bars are cool, or even, but even like,

[39:07] especially since I think it's supposed to be

[39:08] kind of a clandestine meeting that they're going to,

[39:10] like, I know there's a pod race scene in Star Wars,

[39:13] but like, show them going to an athletic game

[39:14] or something like that.

[39:15] Like, show them going to, I would love to see them

[39:16] going to an alien opera or something like that.

[39:19] Like, and they're like, they can make jokes about that,

[39:21] how inexplicable it is.

[39:23] And halfway through the opera,

[39:24] the characters are vomiting on each other or something,

[39:25] and another alien is crying because it's so sad.

[39:27] They could learn about some kind of fifth element.

[39:30] Yeah, exactly, well, it's still an alien opera,

[39:32] but that was one alien singer, yeah.

[39:34] With an amazing range.

[39:35] Freddie Mercury, eat your heart out.

[39:37] This lady's range is astounding.

[39:38] Tim Diamond, get out of here.

[39:40] You've been deposed.

[39:42] Mike Patton, pack it up, buddy.

[39:45] Rob Halford, there's a new Judas Priest in town.

[39:50] Anyway, but who shows up, but an old friend of Janet's,

[39:53] an old lover, as it's hinted,

[39:55] and it's played by Bill Murray.

[39:58] Hey, guys, remember when you were excited?

[40:00] by Bill Murray showing up in movies when you didn't expect it. How many years ago was that?

[40:03] Zombieland? Was that the last time? Well, also, like, it's hard to not expect it when it's in

[40:09] the trailer. Again, we talked about this recently on the show. Not the film's fault, but if you're

[40:15] gonna make it a fun surprise, make it a fun surprise. You know, don't give it away in the

[40:20] actual trailer. I would say it is a, I would say, I mean, and Bill Murray's performance in this I

[40:24] actually like a lot. I think he does a lot with not very little, but he does a lot with very little,

[40:30] but, like, if you really want it to be a fun surprise, find somebody who's not Bill Murray

[40:34] to do it with. Like, at this point, I've seen him show up in cameos in so many movies.

[40:38] I'm kind of done with him. I'm bored with him. Like, find someone that, when he showed up in,

[40:44] like, Zombieland, I remember it was genuinely like, oh, we haven't seen Bill Murray in things

[40:47] in a long time. It's a funny idea that he would be showing up in this world and especially that

[40:51] he has a mansion with his initials on the gates and stuff like that, and he's been pretending to

[40:56] be a zombie for years in order to get by. Like, find someone that, instead of just repeating the

[41:03] same person, find someone else who would create a similar effect in us now. And I don't know who

[41:07] that, I mean, outside of, like, and this is a little too similar because he's also from Ghost

[41:10] Busters, but, like, if Rick Moranis had shown up in this part, I would have been like, you got Rick

[41:15] Moranis in your movie? Like, that's amazing. Like, get someone who, the same way that when Bill

[41:19] Murray showed up in Rushmore, it was like, you got Bill Murray in this little movie? Like, that's,

[41:24] you know, it's, yeah. Man, and I honestly, I'm just, now I'm so excited about this Rick Moranis

[41:29] idea because if he was, like, playing it, the same character, like, we've seen Bill Murray be,

[41:36] like, sort of the loose, like, confident in his own. The kind of lounge lizard type. Yeah, like,

[41:43] guy, I mean, like, Rick Moranis, we haven't seen him do that since, like, SCTV, you know, like,

[41:48] he's been a nerd. He's known for shrinking his own children. Yeah, he is known for that.

[41:55] But also, honey, also, once he blew up a baby and once he shrunk ourselves.

[41:59] Yeah, it's true. But what if he shrunk himself so small that he entered the quantum realm?

[42:04] I mean, I would love it if it turned out it was the same character from the Honey,

[42:06] We Shrunk the Kids, Honey, We Shrunk the Kids movies. I, when I was, when I was telling my

[42:09] wife about. They called him Zelinsky. I was telling my wife and I was like, I was like,

[42:14] oh, yeah, they turn on a device and it accidentally sucks them in. She goes,

[42:17] is this Honey, We Shrunk the Kids? And so it turns out. So he's like an old freedom fighter

[42:24] buddy. But now he's thrown in with the bad guy who we still don't know the name of. His name

[42:28] is Krylar. And it turns out it's a trap. He's it's a setup. And Jentor, the warrior lady,

[42:33] she talks to Cassie and Scott about how the Kang, the conqueror, they still name him,

[42:36] destroy their homes. And Cassie's like, we got to help. And and it's like, this isn't our fight.

[42:41] Let's just get out of here. And it turns they mentioned Janet and they go, Janet Van Dyne.

[42:45] They've heard of her anyway. Krylar is like a lot of people died because of you, Janet.

[42:49] That's when Kang's troops show up. And then the and then are they really cool or anything?

[42:55] They are not. They're not cool for a movie that otherwise is full of weirdo aliens.

[42:59] They're just like guys in armor with like bubble glowing bubble helmets.

[43:04] A lot of Mysterio's and they're not particularly tough. They're not particularly Mysterio.

[43:09] One of the coolest character designs of all time, though.

[43:11] It's an amazing, impractical character design. He has a huge fishbowl on his head. He wears green

[43:16] checked pajamas. He has like eyes on his cape clasp. The biggest cape a man could wear.

[43:23] His gloves have these weird kind of like sharp curlicues coming off the end of them.

[43:28] Oh, man, what a character. You can't walk around in that costume. Must be incredibly uncomfortable

[43:34] and hard to do. OK, so they show up and also but they've also sent the ultimate weapon.

[43:39] He's sent the ultimate weapon. He threw him at him. And I'm like, you cannot have two characters

[43:44] that you're referring to only by their pronouns and not naming them because they're talking about

[43:48] Kang and also M.O.D.O.K. That's right. M.O.D.O.K. showing up and the heroes fight Kang's troops and

[43:54] some aliens. And then they run off in Krylar's organic ship. And and Mike Douglas has to stick

[44:00] his hands in some goop to make it fly and so forth. And so and so the alien refugee village

[44:06] gets attacked by Kang's troops, lasers, aliens. There's electro lassos. Cassie runs in. She's got

[44:11] her own Ant-Man suit. And Scott saves her and tries to teach her his tip, his trip trick where

[44:17] you suddenly get very big and punch someone in the chin. And they're Ant-Man suits. This is all

[44:22] digital at this point, right? They don't actually have. Yeah, I don't like the first movie or two.

[44:27] They had like actual physical helmets they put on their heads. I mean, sometimes they might

[44:33] occasionally, but it's mostly all digital. Yeah. Now, we're about to talk about M.O.D.O.K., so this

[44:38] better be important, Dan. Well, you've put too much weight on it. It's not important at all because

[44:44] I just like continue to have trouble with the premise of Ant-Man and his powers because like

[44:49] part of it is like, I guess you have the same proportional strength when you're Ant-sized.

[44:55] So what is the virtue of suddenly popping huge before punching? Surprise, Dan. It's called

[45:01] surprise. They can't stop from getting punched in the face. Yeah, but you don't, you can surprise

[45:06] them by being an Ant-sized man who is punching them. Like I don't. But how are you going to get

[45:13] up to their chin? You can't jump that high. You don't have proportional jumping powers. Oh, yeah.

[45:17] What? So you're doing is you're like, he's not he's not Flea-Man. Flea-Man plays bass for the

[45:23] Red Hot Chili Peppers. Yeah. So you got to become big just so you can jump enough to then pop into

[45:30] small and then punch. Yes. That's the strategy. Something like that. I don't know if your

[45:35] description is exactly accurate. We're on the same page, I think. Well, also, look, I mean,

[45:39] there's a special move list on the... I'm just saying that in fucking Civil War, Ant-Man is like

[45:45] juggling a plane around when he's still supposed to have goddamn proportional strength.

[45:49] I don't understand it. So you're saying when he gets super big, he would only have normal

[45:54] human strength? If anything, he would be weaker because the molecules in his body are further

[45:57] away. Well, let's say one thing. Because of this weird cube law, if he got bigger, his body would

[46:02] be unable to support himself and he would collapse and die instantly. Yeah. So let's not worry or his

[46:07] legs would break. It would not make for a very good movie. It would not make for a good movie.

[46:10] So let's just get science out of the way in that one. Physics would, if he turned big,

[46:14] his knees are exploding and he is falling to the ground. So let's at least take that away.

[46:18] He can make himself bigger without having to get like calf extension surgery. Have you seen these

[46:23] guys that get this on the internet? How do I do that? I don't think you'd like it. Do you really

[46:30] want to be taller but with little short arms? Do you want to be a human Tyrannosaurus? Yeah, I do

[46:34] want to be a human Tyrannosaurus. That's my dream. Yeah, of course. To make it clear, I don't mind

[46:40] any of this. I just think it's funny to think about. No, Dan. So let's get the science straight.

[46:44] Okay. So according to you, when he gets really big, he should be super weak like a giant kitten.

[46:49] But when he's, because he has proportional human strength at all times. Okay. Now,

[46:54] let's look at him. The guy's had a hard time. He's an ex-con, hard to get a job. His daughter

[46:59] is not happy with him. Now you're going to bring physics to bear against him. Physics,

[47:04] the most implacable obstacle of all. Dan, we'd be able to travel through time and faster than the

[47:09] speed of light if it wasn't for physics. Physics is the ultimate buzzkill. That's true. You ever

[47:13] wish you could fly? Too bad you can't. Physics says you can't. Physics is a big jerk. So you

[47:18] know what I'm going to say? I'm going to take a, I'm going to take a proud anti-physics stand.

[47:21] I think I stand, I speak for the flop house when I say physics, get out of here. We don't need you.

[47:26] We don't want you anymore. And this is not a Harry and the Hendersons. I'm telling you,

[47:29] we don't want you because we love you. We're trying to save you type of thing. This is sincere. This

[47:33] is honest. Physics, you're burnt. This is what you say until we start floating up into the air

[47:39] because a stirring rebuttal doesn't work anymore. Hey, I thought you were going to go somewhere

[47:44] else though. Like when you're like talking about how, what a bad life you're going to be like.

[47:48] So that's why the Avengers all got together. They constructed this balsa wood plane

[47:54] so he could fight it. They were like, I know we're all fighting the superhero civil war,

[47:59] but can we do a solid for Ant-Man and just make a fake plane so he thinks he's strong.

[48:04] He just needs a little more confidence. You know what? Let's make the plane a cake.

[48:07] He'll pick it up. He'll be like, I'm so strong. And then he'll see it's delicious cake.

[48:12] And game when he punches that giant floating space lizard, that thing was fake too. And he

[48:17] wasn't really punching. He was just falling. Thanos is in on it. Thanos is like, I want to

[48:22] destroy the half of the universe, but Ant-Man, we got, we got to keep this ruse up because I

[48:26] would hate to see him cry. Oh, I'm going to make my Titans heartbreak. Thanos has a sense of fair

[48:32] play. He's all about balance. And he thinks Scott Lang deserves a little balance in his life. He's

[48:37] had so much bad stuff in his lifetime to balance it with some good stuff. So Thanos is using the

[48:41] infinity gauntlet to like make a lottery scratcher that is guaranteed to win. If Scott, not to win

[48:47] too much, you can't, you can't retire, but it wouldn't like $5,000, you know? And when somebody

[48:52] shows up at the lunch order, they're like, and it looks like somebody ordered a black and white

[48:56] cookie, half black, half white Thanos. It's the most balanced dessert. Yeah. We're aware. We're

[49:02] aware you feel that way. It's the same cereal as part of this balanced breakfast. You can only

[49:08] say that because you're having a grapefruit with it and some lean protein. Okay. Never guess what

[49:14] my favorite gymnastics routine, the balance beam Thanos. We know it's the balance beam. We know it

[49:18] is. Yeah. It's your favorite scene from final destination is the one with the balance beam.

[49:23] Now to put on my sneakers. You'll never guess what brand new balance. We know it's new balance

[49:28] Thanos. You wear new balance sneakers. We know it.

[49:32] You know what? My favorite, my favorite choreographer balance sheen. Cause it sounds

[49:36] kind of like balance and ballet dancers have to keep their balance pretty well.

[49:41] No, you got a good point. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So anyways, so, so Modoc attacks,

[49:50] let's talk about Modoc. I feel like I ran out of juice though. So, so Modoc he's a,

[49:55] he's in the comics, you know, he's a big giant head who floats around with a little arm,

[49:58] little legs. He's got mental power.

[50:00] He's the mental organism designed only for killing they change that here

[50:03] I think to one mechanical organism or something like that or mobile. Yeah designed only for killing and

[50:09] There's a big reveal that MODOK knows them. It's actually their old at their old arch foe Darren

[50:17] Cory stall yeah, Cory stall yellow jacket from girls. Yeah, was he an ant-man too? No

[50:22] No

[50:25] We knew he had died in the first yes, but instead he got sucked into the quantum zone and

[50:31] Kang turned him into MODOK and I have to say I am not a huge fan of the way

[50:36] They have shoehorned MODOK into this myth. Okay, well cuz I was gonna ask Ellie. Here's the thing for me a man who has

[50:44] no

[50:46] particular

[50:47] History with MODOK other than I could you know, I could you know, if you showed me a picture of MODOK

[50:52] I could say that's MODOK

[50:55] Of giant heads you could pick him out of his life. You can also

[50:58] MODOK you can pick up mount the camera

[51:00] Yeah

[51:00] You can also pick him out of the lineup in Marvel vs

[51:03] Capcom 3 the video game because he's one of the playable characters that who else would be on that big head line up like

[51:08] bonk from from

[51:09] from the video games and

[51:12] Sam the Eagle

[51:14] Johnny Miller

[51:19] Maybe maybe like the boss baby would be on their boss baby. Definitely. Yeah, I got mind

[51:24] So Dan, you know, you know as a man with no particular

[51:28] Like I like I'm I have affection for MODOK in the sense that like as the sort of person

[51:33] I am the idea of a floating head

[51:36] mechanical body that killed people is

[51:39] cool, but

[51:41] I've got it. It's not so much that he has a huge head with mechanical arms

[51:46] Those are his arms and legs, but his head is so enormous. That's become as most of his body, right? Right, but okay

[51:53] You're dead for for me

[51:56] That person this was a fun

[51:59] Use of a character. I was not going to expect I think and you know what?

[52:05] There's something to be said for

[52:06] Tying up a loose end and not introducing yet another human who has fallen through the quantum zone

[52:11] I think my preferred version of this would be to have a different character than MODOK, but that's me

[52:16] I'm being a comics snob I guess to me MODOK is a Captain America bad guy

[52:20] He's created by advanced idea mechanics. And one of things that I like about MODOK is in his original origin. He is like the janitor

[52:27] He's someone of lower intelligence that they use as a test subject and it makes him so powerful that he takes over the whole place

[52:32] And I love the turnabout of the guy that they used as a guinea pig

[52:36] Becoming their boss

[52:38] But and of course, let's not we don't have to get into Moe damn the female version of MODOK who showed up many years later

[52:46] Wait, does she have like a little pink bow?

[52:49] She does wear lipstick, but she does not wear a bow and she uses an enormous lipstick the size of a howitzer shell

[52:57] Has someone else

[53:00] The

[53:06] And I think the more it was just like a thing that they've done a lot with the Marvel movies

[53:11] which you know is fine but that where they take a character that I think there's more opportunity with and they kind of use them

[53:16] as a joke character and

[53:18] Part of it is also that like I didn't I just didn't love the way that the head

[53:22] Stretching effect looked it just looked so silly to me, you know, which is okay if it's a comedy character, I guess

[53:30] Yeah, she's yeah, she's got something

[53:33] Don't try you're not ready for her. She'll destroy you

[53:36] I think it is a comedy effect and thus I don't mind it like he's a comedy character

[53:42] It is so much like it was just his head on a screen rather than like a rather than a three-dimensional giant face

[53:48] it was kind of like when I went to see the

[53:51] Jean-Paul Gaultier exhibit at the Brooklyn Museum and they displayed all the clothes on mannequins that had blank faces and they

[53:59] projected video footage of

[54:01] Models faces onto those the that blank canvas. Yeah, kind of what it looked like. That's what it looks like

[54:06] Yeah, it's like a haunted mansion type thing where you're projecting a face on a head. That's a that's a great way to describe it

[54:11] and Modok

[54:13] He's explains how he became Modok and that Kang found him and turned him into Modok and now he's the ultimate weapon

[54:19] But he's still kind of a joke. Nobody takes him seriously

[54:22] And it turns out he's the one who pulled them in he got Cassie's signal and pulled them into the quantiverse

[54:28] How he turned a like a probe that emits a signal into like a portal that sucks things in science

[54:35] It's comic science

[54:37] Floating head with two little legs that

[54:40] That has like a laser buzzsaw that comes out of him, okay

[54:45] And anyway, and meanwhile Janet still will not tell her family who the fucking villain of the movie

[54:51] Let me check the clock still haven't he hasn't even shown up yet. No, and it's an hour into this podcast

[54:57] Okay, and so and so in an hour into the movie or more and so now we finally get the flashback

[55:02] She talks about meeting Kang. He was stranded in the multiverse

[55:05] they became roommates and best buddies and they fix his his time ship that can travel through the multiverse and

[55:11] When the ship is fixed because it runs on mental energy when she touches it

[55:16] She sees his past psychically which again comic book science who cares? It's fine

[55:20] Don't worry about it

[55:21] And she learns that Kang was a conqueror and that he was deliberately

[55:24] Exiled to the quantum verse although she doesn't know by who or why and so instead of letting him take the ship home

[55:29] She destroys the energy core with her pin particles by making it enormous

[55:34] Trapping them both in the quantum realm

[55:36] Why she never thought of using those particles to make herself super big and maybe get out of the quantum zone that way

[55:40] I don't know. It does it never anybody and Kang net but now Kang has his suit again

[55:46] I guess while they were building his ship. He also gave himself a new suit instead of armor

[55:51] He couldn't get it before and

[55:53] It looks like Kang's suit from the the comics. Oh, I mean it looks the suit there

[55:58] I thought the design they worked with with this looks great. It looks really good. It looks like the comics

[56:03] He still has that kind of purple clown face that I that I think is both chilling and like a harlequin Chester

[56:09] Yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly

[56:11] One of those times where you're like Jack Kirby. I don't know what you were thinking with this design, but I'm all over it

[56:16] yeah, I want to say I I found the performance of Kang to be more intriguing and sort of like

[56:24] Even though we don't know

[56:26] You know, we don't know in quotes. He's bad at that point

[56:30] quietly menacing

[56:31] when he was

[56:33] Playing nice and thoughtful then later on when he just becomes kind of a guy who like walks around saying hushed whispers of dramatic things

[56:41] Yeah, it feels like that there's a lot it feels like he's building to be more of a real character than yeah

[56:46] And it becomes kind of one note after a while

[56:48] I felt that way too that when when he was playing a mental game

[56:51] It was interesting to me, but then when he's just a guy who walks from going tell me again

[56:57] How many?

[56:59] Avengers have I killed I

[57:02] Still can't like that. I

[57:05] After a while, I liked it more than

[57:08] When he was in Loki, I felt like he was there's something off about it

[57:14] Hmm that he was a little bit more manic and Loki like he's jumping on desks and things like that

[57:18] Yeah, I missed a little bit of that because here his two modes are either hushed quiet or just screaming while he shoots lasers at people

[57:25] Yeah, it's kind of nothing in between but anyway Kang he takes over the quantum verse Janet fought him until she got rescued and brought

[57:31] home and

[57:32] Now the Van Dynes they vowed to save the others

[57:35] But keep Kang trapped in the quantum verse because he's a danger to the multiverse

[57:39] And Kang introduced himself to Ant-Man and Cassie and he's like Ant-Man go get the energy core for me

[57:44] Because an army of Kang's is coming. I don't actually I don't know if he says who's coming

[57:47] but he says something bad is coming and you need me for that and Scott's like no, so Kang threatens Cassie and

[57:54] so Scott to save his daughter he jumps into the

[57:57] The core holder that big thing that got big to get the core for Kang he's gonna get the Kang core

[58:03] They're like if you want to save Cassie get the Kang core and he's like core core Kang

[58:07] No, the Kang core for Kang the core Kang for core. You're the Kang core keeper

[58:12] And why didn't you're now, you know, the Kang core catcher keeper

[58:15] Now Kang's like a super genius, right? And he's like an inventor and everything. Yeah

[58:23] Why didn't he just fix this shit himself?

[58:25] Because Stuart then it wouldn't have a reason for it to be an Ant-Man movie

[58:30] Okay

[58:31] Because this villain and this hero do not really match each other because one as we've said is a low stakes

[58:38] Shrinks or gets bigger small-scale guy and the other is a time-traveling conqueror with godlike technology

[58:44] And otherwise, there's no reason for them to even know that they exist each other

[58:47] Yeah, it annoyed me so much when he goes he's like which Avenger are you I forget you all mixed up

[58:53] So you the one with the hammer and then later calls him Ant-Man and it's like dude

[58:56] Were you just pretending that you didn't recognize him?

[59:01] That is that's a that's a that's a dorky move to be oh

[59:04] Which one are you again? The one are you the one with the shield? You can tell I'm a shrinking guy

[59:08] You know who I am. You're a genius, right?

[59:10] Anyway, so he jumps in. Oh, he starts splitting into a million people turns out he's in a probability storm

[59:16] Here's a cool idea. They don't do too much with Rick and Morty bit

[59:20] He splits up into a million different Ant-Man and one

[59:24] Scott Lang who is dressed as if he still worked at the ice cream store that he got fired from and it's like

[59:28] To be there was an episode of Duckman years ago where he breaks the time-space continuum and he's be every move he makes

[59:35] I'll be watching him because it was a great show

[59:36] But every move he makes he's being confronted by the possible result of that

[59:41] Like he goes into one room and he finds out he's gonna be eaten by a lion

[59:44] So eventually so he goes into another room and he finds something bad there and I felt like that episode did such a better job

[59:49] Of like showing multiple variations of a person's future than this one were there

[59:53] It's like in every universe you are Ant-Man except for one where you work at the ice cream place

[59:57] And that's it in the infinite variations of them

[1:00:00] multiverse. The same way that in Doctor Strange, they're like, in the multiverse, there are

[1:00:03] infinite variations. Like in this world, red means go, and green means stop. Ooh, devilishly

[1:00:09] different.

[1:00:10] Yeah.

[1:00:11] That would fuck you up.

[1:00:12] Well, I also-

[1:00:13] It would. You'd get used to it eventually.

[1:00:14] Look, I, far be it for me to be like a CinemaSins science cop, but also, the problem I had with

[1:00:22] this, and again, I realize it's mostly just here to provide a cool visual.

[1:00:26] Yeah, yeah, it looks cool to have lots of Ant-Men. Yeah.

[1:00:29] But if each of them represents a possible Scott, then I don't understand how they're

[1:00:36] all able to work together. If they're all just possible futures, I don't understand

[1:00:44] how they all work together to raise him up. That doesn't seem to make sense to me.

[1:00:48] Well, I mean, they all become, they're all possible physical beings, I guess, in this

[1:00:53] probability storm.

[1:00:54] I guess, that's true.

[1:00:55] But that's true. They all, because in order to save Cassie, they help the true Scott,

[1:00:59] Scott Prime, to get up to the core. And Janet, or Hope, arrives and saves him when he's about

[1:01:06] to fall.

[1:01:07] The Cancor?

[1:01:08] Yeah, when he grabs the Cancor.

[1:01:09] I have a bunch of Cancor-sores.

[1:01:10] Yeah, Cancor-sores.

[1:01:11] Yeah, yeah. He grabs the Cancor-

[1:01:12] Get it checked out.

[1:01:13] Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're very painful. And do not, look, just don't get salt in it, okay?

[1:01:22] It's very painful. And Janet starts briefly turning into alternate Janets, and then, I

[1:01:28] guess, through the power of sheer will, she just doesn't allow that to happen. And they

[1:01:33] take him back to Kang, and Kang takes it and it beats up everybody, and he decides to take

[1:01:37] Janet with him. And that's when MODOK attacks Hank, because there has to be, every character

[1:01:41] has to fight every other character in different combinations.

[1:01:44] And Kang explains the origin to Janet that we already know if we watch the Loki show.

[1:01:50] It's like, again, there are all these Kangs, and when they travel, they create multiple

[1:01:54] universes and they fight each other, and it makes a big civil war throughout space and

[1:01:57] time, and so he's trying to avoid that. And Scott and Hope wake up to find that Hank has

[1:02:03] a bunch of ant farm ants that, were they sucked in at the beginning of the movie, or was that

[1:02:07] another time?

[1:02:08] They were sucked in. No, they were sucked in with, we saw them at part of the-

[1:02:11] Yeah, he had an ant farm.

[1:02:12] Okay.

[1:02:13] And it's all accident.

[1:02:14] And the ants have had all this time in the quantumverse, and they've developed super

[1:02:16] technology, they've evolved amazingly. And am I going to say this is a ripoff of the

[1:02:20] book City by Clifford Symak? Yes, it very much is, because in that one also, ants develop

[1:02:25] into a super advanced technological civilization.

[1:02:28] Yeah, but do they wrestle and eat up Kang?

[1:02:31] No, they don't. Instead, their entire culture is about commemorating and getting revenge

[1:02:36] for the time that a man kicked over their ant hill. And it's what causes the dogs of

[1:02:44] the world to leave and find their own new world, because it's being overrun by ants.

[1:02:48] Anyway, Cassie frees the warrior woman, whose name I've already forgotten, from jail, and

[1:02:53] they team up, and Kang starts addressing his troops via hologram. But Cassie interrupts

[1:02:57] the feed and gives a rousing rebellion speech, which rouses all the alien weirdos to start

[1:03:02] fighting. And we see that in the limitless quantumverse, there's like 60 people. There's

[1:03:08] like 60 dudes, and then there's like 200 troops. It's a small scale world.

[1:03:15] And Modok shows up, and he's fighting. He's about to kill Cassie when Scott arrives as

[1:03:19] very giant man and calls out Kang. And Kang sends a fleet of little spaceships after him,

[1:03:24] and the rebel forces come in and battle, battle, battle.

[1:03:27] Giant man in the quantum realm is still pretty small, right?

[1:03:30] Still microscopic man. Yeah, it's all relative.

[1:03:32] Yeah, that's the thing.

[1:03:33] Wait, so Dan.

[1:03:34] But he's still strong.

[1:03:35] And Dan, you're the arbiter of this. Yeah, what level of strength does he have at this

[1:03:39] point? Because he's giant for them, but he's still microscopic for us. And you've appointed

[1:03:43] yourself judge, jury, and science executioner.

[1:03:45] Yeah, I would say he's extra strong because he's just so compact, man, at this point.

[1:03:50] Those particles are tight.

[1:03:52] Yeah, he is tight. He really is poured into that little costume. And one of the aliens

[1:03:58] literally yells, revolution, as they're running, which I found dorky. And I'm not sure if you're

[1:04:04] supposed to find it dorky or not, because I think it's a dorky alien character who says

[1:04:07] of it. Anyway, battle, battle, battle, aliens versus troops, Cassie versus Modok, Ant-Man

[1:04:11] versus Kang's time ships and the force field thingy around the Kang's ship or whatever.

[1:04:15] And Cassie gets giant and beats up Modok and tells him to stop being a dick and says, there's

[1:04:20] always this. You can always stop being a dick. And he's like, but I'm such a dick. He can

[1:04:24] always stop. And that's his arc is he decides to stop being a dick.

[1:04:28] And he dies as an Avenger. I think guys, I don't know. He hasn't died yet. He hasn't

[1:04:32] died yet. I don't know, man. 2023, I think a pretty good motto is remember, you can always

[1:04:40] stop being a dick. That's true. It's not it's not the moral that we want, but it's the moral

[1:04:45] that we need or not even what we deserve. Yeah, the moral we need. And Kang tries to

[1:04:49] launch his ship, but Wasp and the Ant-Man stop it. And Cassie and Scott are reunited.

[1:04:53] And Kang zaps people with lasers and the rebels run away. The rousing speech has worn off.

[1:04:57] His lasers are fucking nuts, man. It like he he dusts the people he shoots at them like

[1:05:03] they're fucking vampires in a Blade movie. Yeah, yeah. There's the purple dissolver type

[1:05:07] things. Our heroes are fighting with Kang. The Super Ant Army shows up and they overrun

[1:05:10] Kang's troops. And Darren attacks Kang. And and he, I guess, breaks Kang's force field

[1:05:18] or something. He gets through it. And Kang is swept away by ants. And M.O.D.O.K. dies,

[1:05:21] saying at least I died an Avenger. And they're all like, yeah, yeah, I guess you were. Yeah,

[1:05:26] because even someone dying right in front of them, someone they know cannot stop the quips.

[1:05:32] And I was like, and I know it's like a silly movie. It's an Ant-Man movie. He's M.O.D.O.K.,

[1:05:36] whatever. But the fact that they're literally like, well, he's dying in front of you. Has

[1:05:39] Cassie ever seen a man die right in front of her? And yet they're all still like,

[1:05:43] yeah, sure, man, like they still not taking it seriously. It's super screwed up.

[1:05:49] I loved, though, Paul Rudd after M.O.D.O.K. dies, his delivery of like. A lot of stuff

[1:05:57] happened today. It's a very funny. It's a very funny delivery of a joke that instantly removes

[1:06:02] me from any emotional connection to any character in the movie. Because, again, even if this was a

[1:06:07] villain of yours, it's someone you knew, someone you've known for years. And they're they're dead

[1:06:11] right in front of you. I don't know. I can't take this version of M.O.D.O.K. seriously enough to.

[1:06:15] I don't know. It just now I got a question. You as the audience to care whether he becomes

[1:06:20] feels like he's had a redemption arc, you know, when with with Kang and his lasers,

[1:06:27] he just shoot anyone and turn him into dust immediately because probably he could have

[1:06:31] just done that super easy multiple times. Well, that's it's like so. So superhero rules

[1:06:37] function kind of like ninja rules where, as everyone knows, ninja math is that if one ninja

[1:06:42] is fighting you, they are incredibly unstoppable. They're a killing machine. But if for each

[1:06:47] additional ninja that fights you, each ninja becomes proportionally less powerful and weaker.

[1:06:51] And if you're attacked by 20 ninjas, you can just knock them over with ice water.

[1:06:55] They disappeared to dust back to the handheld where the where the beast lies to eat, to devour

[1:06:59] their souls. But so with this, I think it's similar where it's like the superhero characters

[1:07:04] have like mega plot protection. And so all those other people, they can easily get zapped. But the

[1:07:09] superheroes are like they're protected by the by the by their superhero main character. OK,

[1:07:14] you know, cool lasers. He's like, oh, if only I brought the lasers that kill main characters,

[1:07:19] you have to choose. Yeah, you got to die. You got to change the setting.

[1:07:23] Now, this this the the casualness towards death here did not bother me as much as in

[1:07:28] Guardians three when Star-Lord goes, OK, Groot, kill them all. And they're just murdering everyone

[1:07:33] who works for for a high evolutionary. And at the end, when they have the chance to kill the

[1:07:37] high evolutionary, they're like, no, because we're heroes. Guardians of the Galaxy exploding

[1:07:42] spaceship. Oh, so it's OK to kill labor, but not management. Thanks, Guardians. So if I take a

[1:07:47] paycheck because I have to maybe and work for someone who is not the best, it's OK to murder me.

[1:07:52] But the guy at the top making the decisions, he's untouchable. That's OK. He's special.

[1:07:56] That's a harsh rebuke for James Gunn's writing, a man who has not written anything in support of

[1:08:01] the WGA so far. That I don't know about. Is that true? I think so. Yeah. Interesting. Well, OK.

[1:08:08] Looks like James has got a gun to quote Aerosmith in a way that doesn't make sense here.

[1:08:13] So they keep Kang from going through his portal and Kang. But everyone else goes home. So Janet

[1:08:19] opens a portal home. Everyone gets there except for Scott. And Kang stops him from leaving. And

[1:08:24] then Scott fights Kang to keep him from leaving the portal. And Kang really beats the shit out of

[1:08:28] Ant-Man. Yeah, he's just like destroying him as frankly with their power sets. He should.

[1:08:33] Although Ant-Man at this point decides Ant-Man doesn't use his powers at all in this fight.

[1:08:37] Right. Like has he run out of particles? Maybe. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know.

[1:08:42] Both. But it's like Kang was holding back before Ant-Man's holding back now until Wasp returns and

[1:08:48] blasts Kang into a machine that then turns into a different portal. It's a way of, I guess,

[1:08:53] not killing him instead of having him making it so he can come back later.

[1:08:58] Every machine can turn into a portal in this movie. If it's a machine,

[1:09:01] watch out when you put your toast in your toaster, your bread. Don't put toast in your

[1:09:04] toaster to begin with. You put bread in it. If it's already toasted. I mean, let's toast it some

[1:09:08] more. Super toast. What I call super toast. In a way, a toaster is a portal to toast.

[1:09:15] That's a good point. In a way, it's a time machine because you put bread in and then in a minute,

[1:09:27] it's been transformed into toast. It's aged rapidly. So you're saying that if you leave

[1:09:33] bread out, it will naturally turn into toast over a long period of time. But the toaster speeds

[1:09:37] up that process. Oh, I see. What walks on four legs at dawn and toast legs at night.

[1:09:45] Using the power of Pimpernickel particles. It does that. Anyway, don't touch any machines.

[1:09:52] Don't touch your phone. It's a portal. Don't touch your car. It's a portal. Don't touch

[1:09:56] your CPAP machine. You always get sucked through a portal when you're sleeping.

[1:10:00] But now Scott and now Scott and Hope are trapped in the quantum verse for about three seconds

[1:10:05] until moments later, Cassie opens a new portal and just lets them through it.

[1:10:09] And now we're back where we started in San Francisco.

[1:10:13] Scott has a similar monologue to what he started.

[1:10:15] Everything's great, except he starts worrying.

[1:10:17] Wasn't Kang warning them about some kind of big evil thing?

[1:10:20] Was it the right thing to get rid of him?

[1:10:22] Maybe you did the wrong thing.

[1:10:23] I don't know.

[1:10:24] And he's left in this state of what I get.

[1:10:26] I guess John Keats would call negative capability.

[1:10:30] This ambiguous, ambiguous uncertainty.

[1:10:33] They have to live in until we get to the mid-credits scene.

[1:10:36] Unless you have something to say before we get to the mid-credits scene?

[1:10:39] Like, this is what I said, I think, when we talked about Ant-Man

[1:10:42] quantum before, when you hadn't seen it.

[1:10:43] I like this sort of comic disquiet that this ends on because there are so many of these

[1:10:49] superhero movies where people rush in to a world that they're unfamiliar with.

[1:10:55] Fools rush in, like Matthew Perry and Salma Hayek.

[1:10:58] Yeah, they vanquish someone, and maybe they need to be vanquished,

[1:11:02] but the details of the bigger picture are unknown.

[1:11:06] And I like that this movie has him issuing a warning,

[1:11:10] and then has Scott at the end being like, what was all that about?

[1:11:15] I don't know.

[1:11:16] What did I do here?

[1:11:17] I would like it more if it wasn't so clearly a setup for another movie.

[1:11:22] If it was really like, oh, now he has to live,

[1:11:24] it's a funny way that he has to live wondering, did I do the right thing there?

[1:11:28] But we know there's gonna be another movie because, mid-credits scene,

[1:11:32] we see three other Kangs.

[1:11:34] One of them I didn't recognize, but the other two are, of course, Rama Tut,

[1:11:37] the Egyptian version of Kang, really the first version of Kang to appear in the comics.

[1:11:41] And my second favorite Kang, Immortus, the old geezer at the end of time who hates younger Kang,

[1:11:49] and just sits around doing whatever the Time Lords tell him.

[1:11:53] And the voice that Jonathan Majors chooses for Immortus is hilarious.

[1:11:58] It is such a cartoonish old man voice, I felt like.

[1:12:01] Yeah, it's pretty great.

[1:12:03] It sounds so goofy, like someone being an old man in a high school play or something like that.

[1:12:08] I'm, oh, we have to do something.

[1:12:11] Oh, these heroes.

[1:12:13] Anyway, and they've assembled everyone, and all the Kangs show up.

[1:12:16] And as we mentioned earlier in the episode, they're just shouting nonstop.

[1:12:20] They're not even saying words.

[1:12:21] They're just shouting, making noise, hollering.

[1:12:23] It's good to be together.

[1:12:24] It's like a family reunion.

[1:12:26] Yeah, now we know.

[1:12:27] Imagine you were in a, I'm guessing some kind of weird, like, what is that?

[1:12:33] Like a big, like they're at like a venue, like they're about to see a show.

[1:12:36] Yeah, it's like an amphitheater.

[1:12:38] They're in like an amphitheater.

[1:12:40] It does look like they're at WrestleMania, and they're all just cheering because

[1:12:42] something wrestling is going to happen, you know.

[1:12:44] But imagine you're at WrestleMania, and everybody in the audience is you.

[1:12:48] That would be crazy.

[1:12:49] I would be shouting too.

[1:12:51] And all the wrestlers.

[1:12:52] Everyone that shows up is posing.

[1:12:54] With excitement, though, or fear?

[1:12:56] I would be shouting with fear.

[1:12:58] The thing that I like is that it would leave it up to the audience to decide.

[1:13:02] Oh, okay.

[1:13:03] Well, I was asking about you personally, but sure.

[1:13:05] We'll leave it up to the audience.

[1:13:06] I'm a mystery man.

[1:13:08] You can decide whether Stuart would be shouting with excitement or fear.

[1:13:12] Yeah, live in that uncertainty, Stu.

[1:13:16] I hope that they bring in, when they do the Kang stuff, I hope they do bring in the fact

[1:13:20] that the Kangs don't like each other.

[1:13:21] That in the comics, Ramitutt and Kang and Amortus are the same person at different times

[1:13:26] in their life, and none of them like each other.

[1:13:28] And they're always trying to stop the other one.

[1:13:30] Kang hates that he's going to become Amortus.

[1:13:32] He thinks Amortus is this kind of impotent, boring old man who has given up conquering.

[1:13:37] And I just love the idea that he's like, ugh, I hate that I'm going to become you.

[1:13:41] I don't like this.

[1:13:42] I'm going to do whatever I can to kill you so I don't have to be you.

[1:13:45] And I hope that they bring in some aspect of that, that the Kangs don't like each other.

[1:13:50] But then we have an end credit scene.

[1:13:52] Guys, are you ready to see the true face of Kang?

[1:13:55] Yeah, yeah.

[1:13:56] Because we're in the 19th century or the early 20th century.

[1:14:00] It's like a vaudeville-type stage.

[1:14:02] And Victor Timely, Jonathan Majors dressed up in old-timey clothes, is giving a talk

[1:14:07] about time.

[1:14:08] And we see in the audience who's there, but Loki and Agent Mobius from the Loki TV show.

[1:14:14] That's right, Owen Wilson.

[1:14:16] And Owen Wilson's like, wow, I thought you said he was like some big scary guy.

[1:14:19] And Loki's like, he is.

[1:14:21] And then the text comes up, Kang will return.

[1:14:24] And it's like, no shit, dude.

[1:14:26] You spent the whole end of the movie building up Kang.

[1:14:28] Like, of course he's going to return.

[1:14:29] But as if he's the hero of the movie now.

[1:14:31] As if the movie is already like, we're bored of Ant-Man.

[1:14:33] You notice that all these Ant-Man characters weren't really the stars of the show?

[1:14:36] It's because we're tired of them.

[1:14:37] We're all about Kang now.

[1:14:38] Kang, Kang, Kang, Kang, Kang.

[1:14:39] Kang, Kang, da-da-da-da, Kang, Kang.

[1:14:41] That's all they care about is Kang now.

[1:14:43] And I want the answer, the question I have for you guys is, with all this buildup,

[1:14:46] Kang has now been built up in a television show and this movie.

[1:14:51] Are you excited about more Kang?

[1:14:54] Well, I think this is a complicated question.

[1:15:00] I think it's a complicated question.

[1:15:02] I feel like there's a little bit too much set up, but maybe not.

[1:15:07] But I am confused to see, I wonder what Marvel's going to do.

[1:15:13] Well, even if you set aside the Jonathan Majors aspect of it.

[1:15:15] Yeah, let's explicitly set that aside because I do think that complicates it.

[1:15:20] Let's say he has no personal private life legal problems and he is just the same

[1:15:25] promising young actor that everyone loved in other stuff that he did.

[1:15:29] In Lovecraft Country or Defy the Bloods or whatever.

[1:15:31] I'm somewhat excited.

[1:15:33] And especially, wait, especially the last question.

[1:15:36] San Francisco, where he's great in that.

[1:15:39] Keeping in mind, I don't know how he is as a person.

[1:15:41] I'm somewhat excited.

[1:15:42] I'm not really familiar with Kang as a comics character.

[1:15:49] Part of me is like, oh, do we need at this point another big villain that everything

[1:15:54] is working towards?

[1:15:55] Could they do it as well again?

[1:15:58] At the same time, I do like the idea of, yes, but this villain is several versions

[1:16:05] of the same character.

[1:16:08] So, yeah.

[1:16:10] I think he's interesting.

[1:16:11] I think this is a weird Ant-Man movie because it is basically a Kang movie already.

[1:16:17] Yeah.

[1:16:18] It does feel like they wanted to make a, the Ant-Man is being kind of, what's the word

[1:16:23] in wrestling for when they throw someone under the bus just to launch another wrestler?

[1:16:29] I don't.

[1:16:30] I don't know.

[1:16:31] There's a term for it.

[1:16:32] Listeners write in.

[1:16:33] They're not totally doing that with this because Ant-Man doesn't get defeated by Kang.

[1:16:37] But it feels a little bit like it's setting up Kang and it feels also like they're setting

[1:16:41] up Cassie as the next generation so that the, when the old folks retire.

[1:16:47] Yeah, I think there's a lot of that.

[1:16:49] And so it's a transitional Ant-Man movie, I guess.

[1:16:50] But I have to say, as someone who was excited that when they first said Kang was going to

[1:16:54] be a bad guy in the movies, because I like Kang a lot.

[1:16:57] I think he has a different way of doing things than the others, which is that like, he's

[1:17:03] got a different attitude.

[1:17:04] He's got his own stuff.

[1:17:06] But sunglasses.

[1:17:08] He is a time travel based villain.

[1:17:10] And so he can travel through time.

[1:17:12] He can go back into the past and undo things that he's made mistakes.

[1:17:15] He can, I feel like I'm not that excited about this, the multiverse aspect of him though.

[1:17:21] Like they've done so much multiverse stuff though.

[1:17:23] And I really wish they'd do something that really took advantage of the fact that like

[1:17:27] he's someone who can go back and if you defeat him, he can just go back and do and try it

[1:17:31] again at an earlier time or at a different time.

[1:17:33] And I hope they take advantage of that.

[1:17:35] But I'm worried that's just going to be like an army of CGI Kang's crawling all over the

[1:17:39] Avengers.

[1:17:39] You know, I don't know if they can do that though now because they've, they have, they

[1:17:44] have constructed a multiverse rather than like a branching universe rather than like

[1:17:49] one where you can correct your past mistakes.

[1:17:51] Like I'm worried that it's going to be just like another movie full of characters meeting

[1:17:55] alternate versions of themselves, which we've seen a lot of by now.

[1:17:59] And we're also seeing in the DC movies that the DC movies have also now embraced a multiverse

[1:18:04] aspect.

[1:18:05] Kang's in the DC movies?

[1:18:07] Kang's in the, that's the surprise is Kang is in the, is Michael Keaton is actually playing

[1:18:10] Kang pretending to be Batman.

[1:18:12] Oh, that's wild.

[1:18:13] He's changed his name to Michael Kang for the movie.

[1:18:14] You want to get Kang?

[1:18:15] Let's get Kang, he says.

[1:18:19] Where does he get those wonderful Kangs?

[1:18:24] Bird Kang.

[1:18:26] I'm Kang.

[1:18:28] Anyway, um, so let's do, this town needs a Kang.

[1:18:33] Judgments.

[1:18:35] Is this a good, bad movie?

[1:18:37] I've seen The Exorcist 400 times and it keeps getting Kang here every time I see it.

[1:18:44] Yeah, but it's Michael Keaton.

[1:18:45] I'm just doing Michael Keaton.

[1:18:46] Oh, okay.

[1:18:47] Mr. Kang.

[1:18:48] Come on, Kang Ho.

[1:18:49] He was in Gun Ho, right?

[1:18:51] Yeah.

[1:18:51] Kang-iplicity.

[1:18:52] Um, yeah, sure.

[1:18:54] Let's, uh, let's say whether this is a good, bad movie, a bad, bad movie, a movie we kind

[1:18:58] of like.

[1:18:58] I mean, Dan, you joke about Kang-iplicity.

[1:19:00] That is basically what it is.

[1:19:01] That is what it is.

[1:19:03] So Michael Keaton should be playing Kang.

[1:19:05] He did it already.

[1:19:05] Oh, can you imagine?

[1:19:07] Um, let's, final judgments.

[1:19:10] Uh, I'll just quickly say, yes, for me, the Marvel films have a somewhat low ceiling with

[1:19:19] a couple of exceptions and a high floor.

[1:19:22] That second Thor movie?

[1:19:23] You really like that Thor Dark World movie, right?

[1:19:25] Uh, I, I mean, I like it.

[1:19:28] Okay.

[1:19:29] Dan said the odd Thor's not a fan.

[1:19:31] The even numbered Thor's he really likes.

[1:19:33] So Dan loves Thor 2 and Thor 4.

[1:19:35] Thor 1, Thor 3, not a fan.

[1:19:37] I would take Thor 2 over Thor 4.

[1:19:42] Interesting.

[1:19:43] Interesting.

[1:19:44] Maybe it's because, I don't know, maybe I like the Dark Elves.

[1:19:47] Even though Thor rhymes with Thor?

[1:19:49] True.

[1:19:50] Uh, in keeping with that, I would say that this is still a movie I kind of liked.

[1:19:55] I, it's probably within my least.

[1:20:00] favorite five or so MCU movies, and yet I still find enough in it.

[1:20:06] I don't know whether it's Stockholm Syndrome. I enjoy it.

[1:20:11] You know, like, it's a functional movie a lot of the time still, even while...

[1:20:16] Raves Dan McAvoy. It's a functional movie a lot of the time.

[1:20:19] Even while it, like, you know, is not the movie I would wish it was.

[1:20:24] What do you say, Stuart?

[1:20:26] Yeah, I mean, I think it's, I think this is clearly one of the weaker entries in the

[1:20:31] Marvel Cinematic Universe. It feels like a mismatch for the characters. It feels like

[1:20:38] it doesn't particularly do a service to any of the characters, except for Kang,

[1:20:45] and maybe not even him. I mean, there's still, obviously, there's some still stuff that's fun.

[1:20:51] I like the laser face guy.

[1:20:54] He's, like, that's a cool design. Some of these guys have cool designs, yeah.

[1:20:58] Yeah, it's not, and, like, I mean, if you put movie, like, they managed to get some,

[1:21:04] like, movie stars in the movie, and I like watching Michael Douglas and Michelle Pfeiffer

[1:21:08] do stuff. If that's the bar that you're setting, whether the richest company in Hollywood can

[1:21:13] manage to get movie stars in their movies. But it highlights one of the things that I think

[1:21:18] Marvel does, has done well, and what their, what their brand is built on, which is getting

[1:21:26] movie stars to play their characters. Which is to insidiously co-opt all of Hollywood's

[1:21:32] brightest stars. Well, that's the interesting thing, is that they, I feel like there's,

[1:21:37] there's a movement within Marvel to try and bring in new talent that are not established movie

[1:21:43] stars, possibly ones that are willing to take a not as strong contract. And it's, it doesn't work,

[1:21:51] like, like, Robert Downey Jr., his, like, Iron Man, his Tony Stark performance is what built

[1:21:58] the Marvel movies. Yeah, although that was, like, a big comeback for him, too. I mean,

[1:22:02] he was already sort of on the- No, but, but I see what Stewart's saying. They were playing

[1:22:05] off of an established actor, which is something, which, which is, I mean, Alfred Hitchcock did the

[1:22:10] same thing. You cast an actor because they bring with them all the associations of their previous

[1:22:14] work and who, who, what the audience thinks of them. I do think that at this point, the, they're

[1:22:19] leaning on it a little too heavily. Like, you look at that Krylar character, if that wasn't Bill

[1:22:23] Murray playing that character, there's no character there. Like, and I know he's a minor character in

[1:22:27] it, but, but, like, if it's not Michael Douglas playing Hank Pym, Hank Pym does not have a

[1:22:30] personality and is not, not a character, you know. And if it's not Michelle Pfeiffer playing Janet

[1:22:34] Van Dyne, she doesn't have a, she's, there's no character. And so, I think they're leaning a little

[1:22:38] too heavily, especially at a time when Marvel should be feeling like they have a brand and a

[1:22:42] style that's strong enough that they can start moving away, that they no longer need celebrity

[1:22:48] support. I think the opposite is true. I think they're feeling less sure of themselves because

[1:22:52] there's so many movies into this thing and they've invested so much money into it. And at this point,

[1:22:56] it all, it kind of feels like creatively, they are not giving themselves the refreshing time

[1:23:01] necessary between films to create new things. And so maybe they do feel like they need to rely on

[1:23:07] big names super hard. I mean, like, when your character, like, the big name in the movie should

[1:23:11] be Ant-Man and not necessarily that, the person playing Ant-Man. But the same way that, like,

[1:23:20] the James Bond movies are movies that create stars rather than, rather than using stars,

[1:23:25] for the most part. That being said, I'm going to apply, I'm going to say this movie is the

[1:23:30] opposite of the movie Solo to me, where I think Solo is a movie that would have been a better

[1:23:35] movie if it was not a Star Wars movie. I think people would have liked it more and it would

[1:23:39] have come off as more of a fun space heist if it didn't have all the Star Wars baggage.

[1:23:43] This was the opposite for me. I think without the Marvel imprint and names, it doesn't,

[1:23:48] it's like not even really there. Like, there's just not a lot of movie there. And so this is

[1:23:52] one where, I wish they had given it more of its own self to stand up under its own strength,

[1:23:57] more backbone, more muscle, more character, more stuff that where you could say like,

[1:24:02] oh yeah, well, this movie, it doesn't have to exist wholly on its own. It's still chapter

[1:24:07] 30 something of an infinite chapter storyline. But I wish there was more to it that was like,

[1:24:12] that felt like it was trying to make this movie cool and neat and, like, interesting as opposed

[1:24:17] to just... This movie is the event, not the thing that's setting up. Yes, exactly. It feels like

[1:24:22] this movie could easily have been an episode of the Ant-Man TV show, but it's been stretched out

[1:24:26] for a super long length. So you loved it. I call it Ant-Ant. On the scale of ants to not ants,

[1:24:33] I give it ants. My fellow graduates, for 500 episodes, my podcast, The JV Club with Janet

[1:24:44] Varney has gathered story after story of all the scandalous things we've done throughout our

[1:24:49] childhood. Stories like how Jameela Jamil survived a horrific house party and she was on crutches,

[1:24:56] or how Hal Lublin learned a Shakespearean monologue in his pajamas. This is not the speech

[1:25:02] we approved. Without your love and life tragedies, there would be no podcast. In fact, I'll have an

[1:25:07] exclusive look at how Maggie Lawson's mom confronted her after a sneaky basement meet-up with her

[1:25:11] crush. Still the tea, JV. Security! Listen to The JV Club with Janet Varney, Thursdays on Maximum Fun,

[1:25:18] Class of forever!

[1:25:24] Parenting. It's hard, but don't worry. You're not alone. Belly up to the low bar with one bad

[1:25:30] mother and let us remind you that fine is good enough. They want to climb on different things.

[1:25:35] And how am I supposed to keep them both from dying? There is a right way to do this. And if I

[1:25:42] can figure out that right way, I'm going to be a good parent. So that is not a thing. So join us

[1:25:48] each week and let us tell you that you are doing a good job. You can listen to One Bad Mother on

[1:25:54] Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts. I would like to thank our sponsors. For one,

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[1:26:45] You want a robot to do it for you. Give me some tools to do that. Yeah, page views, traffic

[1:26:50] sources, time on site, most read content, audience geography, and more. And you know what else?

[1:26:57] Squarespace has the tools you need to get your business off the ground, including e-commerce

[1:27:01] templates, inventory management, a simple checkout process, and secure payments. If you're running a

[1:27:08] store, you can do it through Squarespace. So why not check out squarespace.com slash flop for a free

[1:27:15] trial. And when you are ready to launch, use offer code FLOP to save 10% off your first purchase of a

[1:27:23] website or domain. Now, the Flop House is also sponsored by Smalls. And by Smalls, I don't mean

[1:27:30] we're taking another trip to the quantum realm. No, I'm talking about Smalls, the company that

[1:27:36] makes delicious cat food for the feline in your house. That's right. My house is filled with two

[1:27:43] feisty felines, Muscles and Meatball Wellington. And the only thing they like more than bedeviling

[1:27:49] me is chomping on some food. And Smalls makes delicious food for them that I can tell is

[1:27:54] healthy. It's made by nutritionists, and it features ingredients that you can find in your

[1:27:59] refrigerator. Smalls food looks fresh. It looks like real actual stuff instead of some weird

[1:28:05] pre-molded paste. And it smells like food, and my cats like it. And it seems like they are healthier,

[1:28:13] and their fur is shiny, and they love me even more. And their breath smells like fish and

[1:28:20] chicken. That's what you want. When they stick their mouth right in my face to prove that they've

[1:28:27] eaten. So why don't you head over and get yourself some Smalls. Higher quality ingredients mean a

[1:28:37] healthier and happier life for your kitty. So head to smalls.com slash flop and use promo code

[1:28:43] flop at checkout for 50% off of your first order, plus free shipping. That's the best offer you can

[1:28:51] find, but you have to use our code flop for 50% off your first order. One last time for everybody

[1:28:58] in the back seats. That's promo code flop 50% off of your first order plus free shipping. And you

[1:29:06] know what? We don't mention our jumbotrons a lot. I just noticed we didn't have any jumbotrons this

[1:29:12] week. I'm like, maybe that's because we don't mention them. People don't know how to do it.

[1:29:16] Go over to maximumfund.org forward slash jumbotron. If you want to pay a little bit,

[1:29:23] that's less than like our normal commercial rates to get either a business message or a

[1:29:29] personal message on the show. If you have a customer base or a friend that seems like they

[1:29:37] love the flop house, why not get a jumbotron? And Elliot, you look like you had something to say.

[1:29:44] Hey, I mentioned this last week, and I'm going to mention it again. I have books that are

[1:29:48] available to buy, and I also have bills that I need to pay. So if you know a child in your life,

[1:29:54] why not get them one or both of my picture books, Horse Meets Dog and Sharko and Hippo.

[1:30:00] Or if you know a not a child, but a horror loving grown-up or maybe a really cool teenager

[1:30:05] Why not pick them up my comic book maniac of New York?

[1:30:08] there's two collected volumes maniac of New York the death train and maniac of New York the Bronx is burning and

[1:30:14] Currently out in comic stores are issues of the third series maniac of New York. Don't call it a comeback

[1:30:19] That series is not finished yet. You can still pick up the back issues and finish it as it happens. The third issue will come out

[1:30:26] Eventually, I don't know when exactly

[1:30:28] And if you want to support the writers strike because as this episode is being recorded we are still on strike

[1:30:33] Who knows? Maybe we won't be by the time it's over

[1:30:36] By the time you get this, maybe we'll be gone, which would be great

[1:30:38] make a donation please if you would like to the entertainment community fund at

[1:30:42] entertainment community org a resource for anyone in the entertainment community who finds himself in financial need during this time of

[1:30:50] Striking or striking related unemployment. Thank you for your contribution. Should you make one?

[1:30:57] Let's move on to letters from listeners if you're a listener, maybe this is one of your letters

[1:31:02] I mean most likely if you wrote it

[1:31:05] Yeah, that'd be a clue. I listen to the episodes, but I didn't write any letters. Yeah, right

[1:31:11] Maybe it was one of my letters any letters. There's I would say a close to zero percent chance

[1:31:17] This is one of your letters. Hmm. Okay, do you interfere states often?

[1:31:21] I

[1:31:22] Enter fugue states enough that it's conceivable that I sent us. What do you think of the toccata and fugue can be minor?

[1:31:29] Mmm, I like it. It's like a toccata is a mixture of like tomato and cottage cheese and I think that's healthy, right?

[1:31:36] Yeah, I want me if the 70s

[1:31:44] There's this great super DC superheroes healthy cookbook from the late 70s early 80s

[1:31:49] They have a copy of in every recipe as cottage cheese in it and they just slather it around as if it's the healthiest thing

[1:31:54] in the world

[1:31:55] Miracle balm. Okay. This is from Blake last name withheld who writes. Hey peaches. So Jason Momoa and

[1:32:03] John Cena are apparently teaming up for an action comedy called killer vacation, but I have a better idea

[1:32:11] Momoa and Cena in the inevitable remake of tango and cash

[1:32:15] Thoughts

[1:32:17] With these two work as Russell and Stallone. Is it sacrilege to even suggest a tango and cash remake?

[1:32:24] Love you guys Blake last name withheld. I you know, I'm not

[1:32:28] Jason Momoa and John Cena or John C. Reilly

[1:32:33] Well, let's start with the asked question, which is

[1:32:37] Okay. Okay, and then maybe if we have time

[1:32:40] John Cena in the tango rey tango role. He's the spectacle suit-wearing one

[1:32:48] Yeah, this is this reminds me of a funny story that I don't think I've told in the podcast yet

[1:32:52] Have I wear after I took my kids to see the Super Mario Brothers movie, which of course who went to an AMC theater?

[1:32:56] So they showed us every trailer for every movie that has been made or will ever be made beforehand

[1:33:01] One of them was for fast acts or fast tan. I don't know how it's pronounced. I don't care and

[1:33:06] Weeks later my younger son who is four and a half. He's in the car and he goes remember the movie

[1:33:12] We saw the commercial for before Super Mario Brothers with the cars and I'm like, oh yeah Fast and Furious movie

[1:33:17] Yeah, he goes who was the guy with the long hair and the sunglasses a bad guy

[1:33:23] And I was like, oh his name is Jason Momoa and he goes he's cool

[1:33:28] But I just I don't know how long that character has been living in my son's head

[1:33:32] Like that's a cool character, you know what I saw the movie he's pretty cool

[1:33:37] Not a surprise not a surprise

[1:33:40] Yeah, and he's the bad guy by the end of the movie he shows up with the cookout, right

[1:33:46] One assumes that that's the you know, that's his trajectory coming to an end

[1:33:50] That's the last shot is joining them and drinking a beer happily

[1:33:54] My I met someone on the on the strike picket line whose theory is that this is the first of a time-travel trilogy

[1:34:00] That eventually we'll see we'll see it we'll see

[1:34:04] Toretto from now going back in time to the first movie and he's like he's like this. I think they're building up to it

[1:34:10] I think the series can only get sillier. That's what they're building up to him

[1:34:13] So we'll find out if it's a time-travel trilogy or not

[1:34:15] It would be amazing

[1:34:16] It'd be amazing if a bad guys like I have to stop the family and has to go back in time to try and prevent

[1:34:21] Dominic Toretto from being born

[1:34:24] He's born in the backseat of a car, of course, of course he was yeah

[1:34:28] Well, I hope that answered your question about

[1:34:31] No, wait, as someone who was pitching a tango and cash animated series not too long ago. I'm fine with the remake of tango and cash

[1:34:38] Let's do it. Let's make it happen. I think those guys would be fun in it

[1:34:40] I just want the movie to be as silly as the original. Yeah, I mean I like look I'm in general

[1:34:46] I would prefer to see more original properties

[1:34:48] But if remakes is where we're at, I think that would actually be pretty good casting for a tango and cash remake

[1:34:53] Yeah, oh this reminded me of something that I forgot to mention earlier

[1:34:56] Sorry about this when we were talking about how the the Marvel movies

[1:35:00] With with the now they should lean on their characters more

[1:35:03] They've introduced them to people how the big the big victory with the Guardians of the Galaxy movie was oh we can make a movie

[1:35:08] That's a hit with characters that people are not familiar with

[1:35:10] That's a huge achievement for us and it was only years later that I realized oh

[1:35:14] But that's what most movies do and they pull it off

[1:35:17] Easily most movies don't expect the audience to walk in knowing the characters and their entire history is already

[1:35:23] Yeah, you don't go and you're like man Lydia Tarr is such a good composer

[1:35:27] I hope nothing bad comes out of her career. I can't wait to see what Cate Blanchett's take on the famous character of Tarr

[1:35:37] This other letter is from Sophie last name withheld who writes Sophie s choice the s stands for Sam

[1:35:44] Wow, dear floppers while walking through a crowded doctor's office waiting room your podcast decided to start playing in my pocket

[1:35:52] I was able to turn it off quickly, but not before pulling it out and hearing Elliot say very very clearly

[1:36:00] masturbation

[1:36:02] Sophie last name withheld. So there you go

[1:36:05] So anything you want to say to Sophie Ellie, maybe apologies. I

[1:36:09] Don't know what one it's not wasn't my fault

[1:36:12] And also, it's a natural thing that almost everybody does and if they're not doing it, they probably should you know, why not?

[1:36:18] Yeah, not it's great

[1:36:22] The main thing is it's free. Yeah. Yeah, you know in this world that's increasingly commodified. Mm-hmm

[1:36:29] Why don't you do something? That's free

[1:36:32] You know what when you if you if so, here's here's my assignment for flop house listeners

[1:36:37] I want you to find a time when you're alone or if this is something you do with a partner with your partner's consent

[1:36:42] I want you to masturbate to a fantasy that is completely empty of corporate owned IP characters

[1:36:48] Wow, I don't want a possible just make it just live in

[1:36:53] Live in live in a fantasy world that Disney doesn't have its mouse paws. Oh

[1:36:59] Man let me think. Okay can't do Jojo's Bazaar

[1:37:04] No, no, Dan. No, Jessica rabbit. No, no, it's Debbie from Adams family values

[1:37:12] I mean, that's the thing. Is that family guy characters for some reason? Why why do I see so many ads?

[1:37:21] Of all the things this is outside of my realm now

[1:37:26] Nearly anything. Yeah, but the family guy characters the fact it's a

[1:37:33] I mean Dan when you when you spend as much time as you do googling pep boys gay threesome

[1:37:38] I think that is you're gonna get that kind of stuff

[1:37:41] Like I was fighting that that's where how I got there

[1:37:43] I don't know why nobody has invented a flashlight with the little in like a Pringles can with the Pringles guys face to use

[1:37:50] That seems like like that seems like it's printing money

[1:37:54] With the with the Pringles can or with the Pringles guy? Yeah, and you can call mustache ride. Yeah. I mean, thank you

[1:38:01] Yeah, perfect. We did this together

[1:38:03] I

[1:38:06] Mean yeah, I was just going to say the the can is the body of the flesh like toy

[1:38:15] I see I misunderstood that

[1:38:18] Stu if you're if you're fantasizing about Joan Cusack, I think that's that's okay

[1:38:22] If you're fantasizing about her character, it's not okay. That's the problem. Yeah, it's hard to separate it

[1:38:28] There's something very special about Debbie

[1:38:33] Which movie Adams family value, okay, the sexy Adams family movie Dan Adams family values

[1:38:40] Sure. I mean, there's always a low-level eroticism between Gomez and Morticia. Okay, let's

[1:38:46] move on to a healthy way to introduce if you're introducing kids to the idea that sex doesn't have to end with marriage and I

[1:38:52] Think that's a healthy message for all of us to remember, right?

[1:38:55] Mm-hmm

[1:38:57] Maybe the kids don't need to know about it. I'm looking at Dan's letterboxes that torque

[1:39:03] Yeah, that's what I recommend. Thank you for teeing me up

[1:39:07] This is where we recommend movies that we actually liked

[1:39:13] Torque is a movie that came out

[1:39:16] in the early

[1:39:17] 2000s it was

[1:39:19] it was sort of it was sort of meant loosely as a actually got a Fast and the Furious parody, which is funny because

[1:39:27] You know, it's almost indistinguishable from a present-day Fast and Furious movie how ridiculous they've got is still

[1:39:33] It's still wilder is the thing that I would say to recommend it to you. It is still it still goes further than how far

[1:39:40] Fast movies have gone, but it's played

[1:39:43] Like a basically like a straight action film with some jokes in it

[1:39:48] Yeah, I don't know that it's supposed to be a parody necessarily. I think well they were doing I think their version

[1:39:54] They're like, let's do it with bikes and we'll get zanier. I

[1:39:58] Mean it could be

[1:40:00] But I have read stuff that suggests that to some degree is it intentionally like a takeoff, but it is also I say

[1:40:07] I mean a takeoff

[1:40:09] I guess is

[1:40:10] Closer than a parody because I think that you can be taking something off while still being basically a serious action movie in certain

[1:40:16] ways and like it really is

[1:40:19] Tongue-in-cheek, let's say but the tongue has you know shot through the cheek

[1:40:24] Embedded itself in a tree next to you

[1:40:27] You know, it's just a movie that is a bunch of wild

[1:40:32] Bike and car stunts that are strung together

[1:40:35] You know with a plot that if you actually like pay attention is they put a little more care into the structure of it that?

[1:40:42] I think

[1:40:43] There's so much meathead style on top of it that you don't realize like oh

[1:40:46] That's kind of cool that they like establish all these characters and you understand why they're bouncing off of each other the way they are

[1:40:52] But it is just

[1:40:54] You know if you poured a bunch of pixie sticks into some code red

[1:40:59] That's what that movie is

[1:41:01] And I saw it at a weird Wednesday at the Alamo and the audience ate it up

[1:41:05] It is a blast with a bunch of people so it's a torque

[1:41:09] Okay

[1:41:11] I'm gonna recommend a movie that I watched for the first time recently

[1:41:17] with the passing of Tina Turner I

[1:41:20] Finally got around to watching what's love got to do with it from 1993 and it's a biopic

[1:41:27] Focusing on and a genre that I normally have no real fondness for

[1:41:33] but the two central performances of Angela Bassett as Tina Turner and

[1:41:39] Lawrence Fishburne as Ike Turner are

[1:41:42] Incredible the two of them like it's like Lawrence Fishburne is like an all-time villain

[1:41:48] He is so fucking horrible and yet like a very believable

[1:41:53] character a very like it's a huge performance and

[1:41:57] Angela Bassett's incredible as well not to mention the fact that she is the most insanely ripped person

[1:42:03] I've ever seen in a movie like she is so jacked. It's incredible. Yeah, it's yeah

[1:42:10] It's it's very meaningful and the way that in the end of the movie

[1:42:13] They managed to actually weave in some actual footage of Tina Turner

[1:42:17] Normally, I find like when you take a biopic and you mix in footage of the actual person that ends up kind of being a little

[1:42:23] Weird, but there's something very special about it feels very triumphant. So if you're looking for a way to celebrate a

[1:42:30] Generational talent like Tina Turner. This is a good way to do it

[1:42:34] And I'm going to recommend a movie starring someone who is not particularly popular with people right now

[1:42:40] But I'm gonna do it anyway, cuz I don't care whose toes I step on. Yes, I do

[1:42:44] I don't want to step on people's toes

[1:42:45] But in this case, I'm pretending I'm putting on a false front because I don't want people to get mad at me

[1:42:50] And that's a movie called Miami Blues. So this is a movie starring Alec Baldwin and Jennifer Jason Lee and Fred Ward

[1:42:57] I

[1:42:58] remember when it came out when I was a kid and I was too young to see it and I could not really figure out what

[1:43:02] Kind of movie it was supposed to be from the from the commercials in the trailers and watching it

[1:43:06] I'm like, I don't know that anyone was gonna be able to figure out exactly movie

[1:43:10] it is because it's a

[1:43:12] you know a kind of comedy crime movie but not a full-on comedy and much more crime and I think that until the heyday of

[1:43:20] Tarantino movies that was still kind of in a fringe thing for a movie to be for it to be a

[1:43:25] More out-and-out crime movie that had a sense of humor in it. Alec Baldwin is a

[1:43:30] Sociopath maybe not that different from real life. I don't know. I've never met him who is a con artist, but not a particularly

[1:43:36] Brilliant or even effective con artist in a lot of ways

[1:43:40] it's but he's better at figuring out people to prey on than he is at keeping his story straight and

[1:43:45] He falls in love with Jennifer Jason Lee who's a very naive young woman

[1:43:49] in many ways

[1:43:50] but there's also a woman who is desperate for a kind of like stability and comfort that she thinks he can give him and

[1:43:57] that she thinks he can give her and

[1:44:00] Fred Ward is a police officer who

[1:44:03] Gets wrapped up with these two and Alec Baldwin in a in a fit of anger

[1:44:08] beats him up and steals his badge and his dentures and his gun and

[1:44:13] decides to present himself as a

[1:44:15] kind of fake police officer in order to rob people and gets

[1:44:18] into more and more trouble doing this and it's the kind of movie that like

[1:44:22] It's it's not based on it. It's based on a novel by Charles Williford

[1:44:26] But it feels like an Elmore Leonard type story in a lot of ways and well

[1:44:31] Sorry, I just saying that I I read the book as well as I've seen this movie and I like it a lot too

[1:44:35] I read the book because Elmore Leonard cited him as like he's like, he's the best crime novelist. So like you definitely

[1:44:43] Similar type of thing. It's and it's just like I really liked it a lot

[1:44:46] I like spending time with these characters even they were when they were being even when Alec Baldwin's character is being you know, like a

[1:44:52] Terrible person there's still something fascinating about them

[1:44:55] And it was written and directed by George Armitage who also did gross point-blank

[1:44:59] So it's like a little bit less comical version of gross point-blank in a way so the similar tone

[1:45:05] so that's Miami Blues if you want to see a

[1:45:09] performance that uh, I

[1:45:11] Did not think Alec Baldwin was gonna be able to pull off the whole movie, but he does

[1:45:15] really well and

[1:45:17] Fred Ward and Jennifer Jason Lee just look Fred Ward and Jennifer Jason Lee are just like super likable throughout the whole movie

[1:45:22] So that's Miami Blues

[1:45:25] Well, you know what that's the end of the show yeah, we did it we survived the quantum first guys

[1:45:32] We made it out alive. We made it. We trapped. What's next Kang Dynasty the Kang Dynasty when Kang is gonna fight

[1:45:40] Himself with big shoulder pads and they roll into a pool

[1:45:44] Yeah

[1:45:46] That would be great

[1:45:47] Hey, we haven't said this in a while if you like the show

[1:45:52] Maybe get on iTunes. Give us a good rating. I think I said in a previous episode

[1:45:56] I felt bummed out by some bad ratings that were not about

[1:46:00] the show or about whether the show is funny, but about

[1:46:04] You know right-wing trolls. They're really about us being taken over by the woke mind virus. Yeah

[1:46:09] No, we are that's crazy. It's too weird how when the woke mind virus takes over you feel better and you you're nicer to people

[1:46:15] Yeah, you're not just sort of like looking for ways to exclude and put others down

[1:46:22] anyway

[1:46:24] Yeah, I don't know if you if you you're inclined to leave us a nice review on

[1:46:29] iTunes

[1:46:30] Tell other folks about us that you might think would like the show might think would like I am now I'm talking like I'm a little

[1:46:36] I have no character

[1:46:38] Thank you to our network maximum fun

[1:46:40] Go to maximum fun org if you want to check out other great podcasts on the network

[1:46:46] There are a ton of them

[1:46:48] Thank you to Alex Smith who goes by the name how will Dottie on various socials for being our producer?

[1:46:55] He does music. He does videos. He does twitch streams check him out and what he does on his own

[1:47:02] But now I say thank you for listening for the flop house. I have been Dan McCoy. I've been Stuart Wellington

[1:47:09] I'm Elliot Kalin and as long as we're saying things that we haven't said in a while, but we should Dan Stewart. I love you

[1:47:15] Come on

[1:47:32] Haunted by numbers, I am the ghost of four

[1:47:38] And I am the ghost of nine add me to something

[1:47:45] Go ahead. I dare you is an easy tip act like you're adding ten, but subtract one from the other number

[1:47:55] Multiply me by a number and then add the two digits together of the of the

[1:47:59] Subtract one from the other number. I am the ghost of four

[1:48:03] Multiply me by a number and then add the two digits together of the of this of what you get and it becomes a nine again

[1:48:15] Magic that's the devil's work. Yeah

[1:48:17] Maximum fun org comedy and culture artists owned audience supported

Ep.#398 - Ant-Man and the Wasp: Quantumania

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