FH Mini 153 - Pride

[0:00] Hello, podcast listener.

Elliott Kalan

[0:06] Welcome to the Flophouse Podcast.

[0:08] Usually on the Flophouse Podcast,

[0:10] we watch a bad movie, or as Dan likes to say,

[0:12] a movie that has been a critical or financial failure

[0:14] because he feels bad for the movies,

[0:16] and we talk about it.

[0:17] But this is a miniature episode,

[0:19] what we call a Flophouse mini,

[0:21] where instead we'll be doing something different,

[0:23] still movie-related, but something a little different.

[0:25] My name is, of course, Elliot Kalin.

[0:28] Today I'm joined by my—

[0:29] Yeah.

[0:30] Oh, sorry.

Dan McCoy

[0:31] Using my usual cue.

[0:33] I'm Dan McCoy, loving this gentle energy you're bringing.

Elliott Kalan

[0:35] Yes.

[0:36] And I'm also joined by—

Dan McCoy

[0:38] And I am Stuart Millett.

Elliott Kalan

[0:40] But today we also have another guest.

[0:42] Perfect. We did it perfectly.

[0:43] Yes, we did it flawlessly.

[0:45] You can really tell we've been doing this for almost 20 years.

[0:48] Today we're also joined by another guest,

[0:51] or in this case, perhaps a guest host, you might say, in a way,

[0:54] because he's going to help lead us through a conversation

[0:56] about an interesting topic.

[0:59] His name, of course, is Alonzo Duralde.

[1:01] You probably know him as the chief film critic for The Film Verdict.

[1:03] Perhaps you know him as co-host of the podcast Maximum Film

[1:05] and also Linoleum Knife,

[1:07] Linoleum Knife being one of my favorite podcasts.

[1:09] He's author of the books Have Yourself a Movie, Little Christmas,

[1:11] and also Hollywood Pride, among others.

[1:14] And he's here to talk to us today.

[1:15] Alonzo, are there any credits that I have not mentioned

[1:17] that you'd like me to mention in this voice?

Alonso Duralde

[1:19] Well, Elliot, I also co-host a show called Breakfast All Day

[1:22] with Christy Lemire on YouTube,

[1:24] and I'm a regular contributor to the Deck the Hallmark podcast.

[1:28] And I had no idea we were doing ASMR today,

[1:31] but I'm here for all the bedtime calm vibes.

Elliott Kalan

[1:35] That's right.

[1:36] That's what this mini is all about, is bedtime calm vibes.

Dan McCoy

[1:39] Bedtime calm vibes, and then Stuart honking, blowing his nose.

[1:43] I'm sure Alex will cut it out.

[1:46] Leave that in, Alex.

Stuart Wellington

[1:47] Leave in Stuart's human frailty, his weakness.

[1:51] I don't want people to think that I'm some kind of inhuman,

Dan McCoy

[1:55] godlike being who cannot get ill.

[1:57] No, no.

Stuart Wellington

[1:57] I am recovering from strep throat currently,

[1:59] and it fucking sucks.

Dan McCoy

[2:01] Yeah, yeah.

Stuart Wellington

[2:02] If you prick him, does he not bleed when I started making fun of you?

Elliott Kalan

[2:07] Now, there's a specific topic that Alonzo was going to talk about today,

[2:11] but before we started recording, Alonzo broke the news to us

[2:14] that he attended one of the screenings of After Last Season,

[2:18] whatever that movie is called, that we did recently.

[2:20] And so I do tell our listeners a little bit about what the experience was like.

Alonso Duralde

[2:24] Yeah.

[2:24] Yeah, so everything your guest said about the trailer being on Apple trailers

[2:28] and everybody thinking that it was viral marketing for Where the Wild Things Are.

[2:31] Absolutely true.

[2:32] I remember when that happened.

[2:33] And I just remember seeing that trailer thinking, huh, okay.

[2:37] And I have a couple of people that are friends of mine

[2:40] who see just about everything that opens.

[2:43] And every so often, they will sound the alarm.

[2:46] For a movie like, say, I don't know if y'all have seen Standing Ovation.

[2:50] No, I don't know that one.

[2:51] The teen musical or Dangerous Men or, you know, they were early on The Birdemic and The Room.

[2:59] Like when they tell you drop everything and go see this movie, you listen.

[3:04] And so After Last Season opened in four markets for one week only.

[3:09] One of those markets is Lancaster, California, which is a good hour from where I live.

[3:15] It's way up, like you're heading towards like Bakersfield, I guess.

[3:20] But I had been told, you have to go see After Last Season.

[3:24] So I went with two friends and we've never forgotten it.

[3:27] And I actually own a DVD that was a brief moment where the mysterious Mark Regan was selling them on his website.

[3:34] And one of the friends who went with me to that screening got it for me.

[3:38] So I still have it in my collection.

[3:39] It is a prize possession.

[3:40] So when I saw y'all were doing an After Last Season episode, like my head exploded.

Elliott Kalan

[3:45] Yeah.

[3:45] I feel like we were so – we're so late to the train on that one.

[3:48] So, you know, there's this whole – whenever I hear about one of those and I'm like, oh, how did I not know about this?

[3:55] But then I feel a little bit better about it.

[3:55] It's due for a revival, I think.

Alonso Duralde

[3:57] You know, I think enough time has elapsed.

[3:59] We've all – maybe the people who knew forgot.

[4:01] And so now you're there to sort of beat the drum again to let people know that this is –

[4:07] That makes me feel better.

[4:08] Yeah, and it's in the public domain by now, right?

[4:10] Probably.

[4:10] One would – heaven only knows what the crackpot history of this movie and how much it did or didn't cost, you know?

Dan McCoy

[4:18] I also feel like a lot of these like really like legendary bad movies are the stuff that we would cover during small Vimper.

[4:27] And thus, like, you know, it's like once a year we would get around to it.

[4:33] Unfortunately, our bread and butter has become mediocre Hollywood movies that are just sort of deadening.

Alonso Duralde

[4:39] But, yeah, there's something about these movies where it's not even just that the movie is so bizarre but the making of it is so shadowy.

[4:48] You know, like where did they get their money?

[4:49] And who – you know, how is this actually edited and put into theaters?

[4:55] You know, like when you – because when you get to stuff like The Room or, you know, Ben and Arthur, you're just like – the origin story is as weird as the film itself, you know?

Elliott Kalan

[5:04] But it's also – and the answer everyone always goes to is like, oh, it must have been a money laundering operation.

[5:08] It's like there's easier ways to launder money than to make and release a film.

[5:12] Yeah.

[5:14] But Alonzo, the original –

[5:16] Yeah, that works out.

[5:17] Usually that works out.

[5:19] If Breaking Bad is any indication, yes, car wash is the way to go.

[5:23] Yeah.

[5:23] Alonzo, you weren't here originally to talk about after last season.

[5:26] Although when you texted me this morning a picture of your ticket stub from seeing it, I was like, I got to hear more.

[5:31] Yeah.

[5:32] But you were here because it's – because it is June and June is Pride Month, right?

Dan McCoy

[5:38] Just because it's June, June, June.

[5:39] June, June, June, June.

[5:41] Yeah.

Elliott Kalan

[5:41] And so, Alonzo, you wanted to have us talk about – a little bit about kind of like – the question was, I believe, like when was the first time that we remember seeing kind of like queer representation on film?

[5:53] Yes.

[5:54] Right?

[5:54] That was the question that you had asked us originally.

Alonso Duralde

[5:56] Yeah.

[5:56] This is a conversation I've had with a lot of queer people because I think, you know, we were always sort of on the lookout for it and it sort of, you know, it felt like a signal from the world like, oh, wow, maybe there's this – you know, there's a community out there for me.

[6:09] Or maybe, you know, there's – I'm not alone in the world.

[6:12] Although for people like my age, it was more often than not, oh, my God, I'm not that, you know.

[6:18] And so, as people who are equally versed in your Solaris's and your bikini's car wash, I thought it would be really interesting to hear what y'all's take on when did you start sort of realizing these characters existed, you know, in the world and in movies?

[6:37] And did it color your judgment of what a queer person was based on, oh, are they all like that?

[6:44] Or, you know, do you immediately know, wait, that's gross, you know?

[6:48] I mean, it depends.

[6:49] Like, I'll tell you mine.

[6:51] The first time I really remember, like, perceiving a queer character in a movie – and I'm sure as a kid I had seen, like, you know, old screwball comedies with, you know, Franklin Pangborn or whatever.

[7:01] Yes, yeah.

[7:02] And I knew the sort of – the sissy and the persnickety.

[7:04] Eric Bloor in the Fred Astaire movies and you're like, yes, he's a guy who's – yeah, exactly.

[7:08] Sort of uptight and, you know, fussy and whatever.

[7:11] But once I hit puberty and I was looking at movies in a different way, do you guys know the 1981 sort of Broadway sort of slasher movie The Fan?

[7:24] No, I don't know that one.

Elliott Kalan

[7:25] I'm aware that it exists.

Alonso Duralde

[7:27] Okay.

[7:27] So it was based on a novel that was apparently quite successful and it was an epistolary novel.

[7:32] Like, the whole thing is letters and faxes and whatever else.

[7:37] But the premise here is basically that Lauren Bacall is a big Broadway star.

[7:42] I buy it.

[7:43] I believe it.

[7:44] Yes.

[7:44] Well, weirdly, she was at that point.

[7:46] Like, she actually did win a Tony or two, which is bizarre because Lady Cannot Sing.

[7:50] And you see that in The Fan where she has a couple of big numbers that are really embarrassing.

Elliott Kalan

[7:54] There's more – Alonzo, Alonzo, maybe this is me feeling stereotypical about queer people.

[7:59] There's more to Broadway than just musicals.

[8:01] There's straight drama.

[8:02] You know, they don't always sing.

Alonso Duralde

[8:03] But she did musicals.

[8:05] Oh, okay.

[8:06] Then that's a different thing.

[8:06] I'm not judging her based on a thing she wasn't doing.

[8:09] She actually was in, like, Woman of the Year and stuff.

[8:12] Okay.

Elliott Kalan

[8:12] It wasn't like a revival of Death of a Salesman or something.

Alonso Duralde

[8:14] Exactly.

[8:14] Yes.

[8:15] Yeah.

[8:15] Like, there are not enough tunes in Long Day's Journey in the Night.

Elliott Kalan

[8:20] There should be a musical version of Long Day's Journey in the Night.

[8:23] That would be great.

Alonso Duralde

[8:26] Oh, boozies.

[8:28] Anyway.

[8:29] So, yeah.

[8:30] So, she's a big Broadway musical star.

[8:32] And she has a stalker played by a pre-Terminator, Michael Biehn.

[8:37] And the whole time he's sending her these letters that are increasingly, like, obsessive and, like, sexual.

[8:44] And the movie never comes out and says that he's gay.

[8:47] But I think we're sort of meant to pick up on that because he is stalking a woman of Broadway.

[8:53] Nonetheless, there is a part where the police are closing in on him and he has to fake his own death.

[8:58] So, he goes to a gay bar, picks up a guy who is his general, like, size and, you know, body type.

[9:05] They go to a rooftop.

[9:07] His pickup initiates offscreen oral sex on Michael Biehn.

[9:12] Michael Biehn reaches for a straight razor encased in a pink plastic sheath, by the way.

[9:19] Slits the guy's throat, sets him on fire, leaves a suicide note to sort of make the police think that he has killed himself and, I guess, immolated himself.

Elliott Kalan

[9:28] Once he cut his own throat, he then lit himself on fire, I guess.

[9:31] Yeah.

Alonso Duralde

[9:31] I guess he mentions Savannah Rola once or twice in the suicide note, perhaps.

[9:35] Anyway, so, that was the first time I'd ever seen two men having sex in a movie.

[9:40] And they didn't finish because one of them got his throat slit by the other one.

[9:45] And I was like, okay, I'm not.

[9:47] We're, you know, that movie alone, I think, kept me in the closet for an extra three years, probably.

[9:53] Oh.

[9:54] So, that stuck with me.

[9:56] And that's like a biggie.

[9:58] And the 80s were rife with these kind of really terrible, you know, like,

[10:04] to be more next-door neighbor in St. Elmo's Fire with the strawberry perched on the lip of his margarita, you know,

[10:12] or, I mean, countless other movies.

[10:15] And also, I think the 80s was prime time for, like, the hero gets to say faggot and no one cares, you know.

[10:22] And it's funny.

[10:24] So, you know, this is, I'm older than you guys, but these are the movies of your youth.

[10:29] These are the films that made you.

[10:31] So, yeah, I would love to hear, like, your recollections of, like, oh, yeah, there was this guy and that lady.

[10:36] And, you know, maybe they were good, maybe they were terrible.

[10:39] But, you know, tell me.

Stuart Wellington

[10:41] The first one that comes to mind for me is, which police academy was it where they go to a gay bar?

Alonso Duralde

[10:48] All of them.

[10:48] Yeah.

[10:49] They always wind up at the Blue Oyster, which is somehow a bar where leather dudes dance the tango.

[10:55] Which is what happens at a leather bar.

[10:57] It's always leather night, yeah.

Elliott Kalan

[10:58] There was such a, when we were kids, there was, when you would, I think that was probably,

[11:03] something like that is probably the first one for me also.

[11:05] It's something where, like, it's a comedy or an action comedy, and there's a character in it who is either very swishy or is a leather guy or both.

[11:13] And there was this, I feel like growing up, there was this understanding gay men are all incredibly effeminate,

[11:18] but they're also into leather and, you know, tough daddy stuff.

[11:22] Right.

[11:22] And the idea that not all gay people are into leather and not all leather people are gay was such a, like, it just didn't,

[11:29] it just was conflated into, like, a general other.

[11:33] And I think, I'm trying to think what the specific one was, but I feel like there's, there were so many,

[11:37] what's the, in the, is it, is it Pronson Pitchot in the Beverly Hills Cop movies who's like a-

[11:43] Surge?

Alonso Duralde

[11:43] The Surge, the kind of mincing.

[11:46] But I'll tell you, he actually, I think, is more in the tradition of the old screwball sissy characters

[11:51] in that he is self-contained and you meet him on his terms.

[11:56] He is not going to meet you on yours.

Elliott Kalan

[11:57] That's true.

[11:58] But I think, like, that's maybe one of the first ones I remember seeing where it's like,

[12:02] where it's like, oh, this guy is being, clearly there's like a, there's not, there's a lack of,

[12:07] like, at the very least kind of macho quality, which I had started like, or, or like a traditional,

[12:14] I don't know, like the hero of the movie masculinity.

[12:17] Right, Butch.

[12:18] Yeah, not Butch, yeah, Butch.

[12:19] But then as, but I feel like also when I was growing up, because I'm a little bit, you know,

[12:22] the new Alonzo, it was during, like, what I really remember is kind of like the late,

[12:26] the early 90s when suddenly, suddenly like the idea of queerness or homosexuality was now a big topic

[12:34] of conversation nationally in a way that, that I think it had been more of an undercurrent before.

[12:39] And so, like, the, it felt like, I remember growing up, I was like, it felt like, so, like,

[12:45] did we just discover gay people?

[12:47] Like, is this the thing that, is this like a new thing that happened?

[12:50] And then you go back and watch old movies and you're like, oh, no, it's, you know,

[12:52] this is something that is always been around and aware of.

[12:54] The same way that, like, you watch 30s movies and you're like, wait a minute,

[12:57] they had sex back then?

[12:58] And the people making the movie, like, knew that sex existed?

[13:01] You know?

Alonso Duralde

[13:02] Well, I think, I mean, the late 80s, early 90s is where, like, AIDS was happening.

[13:05] Yeah, I think that must have been, yeah.

[13:06] So, yeah, we were a topic of conversation as a problem, you know, as, as either objects

[13:13] of pity or, like, hide your children.

[13:15] They are coming to, you know, give you their cooties.

Elliott Kalan

[13:17] But I remember that started to edge into, like, like the, the, like, you know what?

[13:22] It's okay.

[13:23] You know what?

[13:24] Like, like, like the.

Alonso Duralde

[13:25] The very special episode of the sitcom where somebody could show you that, like, guys,

Elliott Kalan

[13:29] you know, they're just like you and me.

[13:31] But it was, but I feel like it was like the, like, we showed the first Bill and Ted movie

[13:35] to my older son and he really enjoyed it.

[13:37] But the part where there's just, like, that one moment where they're, where they're using

[13:41] the F word with each other.

[13:42] And I'm like, I'm like, oh, I don't like this.

[13:44] Like.

Alonso Duralde

[13:45] Well, and, and to their credit, both Alex Winter and Keanu Reeves were like, you know

[13:48] what?

[13:48] We, we were young and dumb.

[13:50] And like, the, the, the, the apology tour is always fascinating.

[13:53] Like, they did one.

[13:54] The Beastie Boys, I think, were, you know, the kind of like looking back at their early

[13:59] stuff.

[13:59] So, you know, I, I'm all for Eddie.

[14:02] Well, yeah.

[14:03] Eddie Murphy.

[14:03] Cause I was saying, cause Beverly Hills Cop does give you Eddie Murphy doing his little

[14:07] mincing limp wrist thing and talking about having, you know, herpes simplex 10 or whatever.

[14:11] And it's like.

Elliott Kalan

[14:13] I feel like that was the era when it was like Eddie Murphy and like, we're seeing Robin

[14:18] Williams doing like his, his kind of mincing voice.

[14:20] His kind of like, like pre birdcage when it's not, this is a character I'm playing,

[14:25] but this is just like a voice I'm doing in a routine and everyone.

[14:28] And the, and the joke is, can you, this is hilarious that I'm doing this voice or something

[14:31] like that.

Alonso Duralde

[14:32] Yeah.

[14:32] I mean, I, I'd have to parse all of the Robin Williams stuff, but I mean, I think he had

[14:36] at least sort of a San Francisco background and I think kind of was mining that more for

[14:41] the comedy of the outrageousness than the like, look at this silly homo, you know?

[14:46] Yeah, I guess that's probably true.

Elliott Kalan

[14:47] But I think in some ways, but looking back on it, I didn't realize at the time, but I think

[14:50] the first character, like the first queer character I'm seeing might've been now that

[14:53] I assume that styles, the character from Teen Wolf, the best friend, I believe is, is a,

[14:58] is a, is an, is a closeted character.

[15:00] And he, and he has a moment where he, where he says that, where he says he's not as a joke,

[15:05] but I'm like, there's no way, there's no way this character is not in love with Michael

[15:08] J. Fox.

Alonso Duralde

[15:09] Yeah.

[15:09] The people who say it the loudest sometimes, you know, especially when you're a teenager.

Dan McCoy

[15:13] I remember that.

[15:15] So when I was a kid, I, you know, I just, I really loved, I loved the movie.

[15:20] Zorro, the gay blade.

[15:22] Oh, me too.

[15:23] Because, because I, the thing was like, I just loved Zorro.

[15:27] I love the character of Zorro.

[15:29] And Zorro, the gay blade is this movie that I don't know at all how I would react to now.

[15:34] I haven't seen it since then, but like, she had a twin brother who was forced to take over

[15:40] the mantle of Zorro.

[15:41] His twin brother, Bunny.

[15:43] Bunny Wigglesworth.

[15:44] Yeah.

[15:44] Who was very effeminate.

[15:46] But like, as a kid watching this movie, loving Zorro and not knowing anything about gay people,

[15:53] I'm just like, oh, this is his funny twin.

[15:56] Like, there's like, none of it like registered to me as like, I think a gay stereotype, even

[16:02] though it's in the title.

[16:03] I'm just like, oh, this is a fun adventure movie with jokes.

Alonso Duralde

[16:07] This big, goosie guy.

[16:08] No, but, but here's the thing, like, for me, and, and, you know, you ask 20 gay people,

[16:14] you'll get different answers on this.

[16:15] I love Zorro, the gay blade.

[16:17] And I, what I think is great is that he is never the butt of the joke, at least in terms

[16:22] of, you know, yes, we're meant to laugh at his wild, outrageous sense of fashion.

[16:27] The fact that he like turns these Zorro outfits into these like fringe, you know, kind of like

[16:32] crazy things, but he is as effective with the bullwhip as Zorro is with the sword.

[16:39] And he wins.

[16:41] He wins the day.

[16:42] He is always defeating and shaming the bad guys in the way that Zorro would.

[16:47] And so weirdly, it's this kind of like, yeah, we're meant to laugh at how campy and outrageous

[16:53] and over the top you are, but you are also a Zorro level superhero, you know?

[16:57] Yeah.

Dan McCoy

[16:58] No, I think you're reminding me, like, I also think that like, I loved Indiana Jones so

[17:03] much that I just like, I thought whips were cool.

[17:05] So I'm like, this cool guy has a whip.

Elliott Kalan

[17:08] It was a brief period when whips were like the weapon, the cool weapon of choice, even

[17:12] though they're maybe the hardest thing in the world to use.

[17:15] Yeah.

[17:16] You'll put an eye out.

[17:17] Yeah.

Stuart Wellington

[17:18] But I can't believe we haven't talked about C-3PO, by the way, the original gay robot.

[17:22] Thank you.

[17:24] He was a real role model for me.

Elliott Kalan

[17:28] They did something recently where they, so the, in the Mad Magazine parody of Star Wars

[17:36] that first came out, they had a joke from R2-D2 where he says, oh great, I'm stuck here

[17:40] with an F-word robot.

[17:41] And they changed it for a recent, a more recent reprint.

[17:45] They changed it to, I'm stuck here with a gay robot.

[17:47] And it's like, well, it's still the same joke.

[17:49] You just took out the slur, but it's still the same.

[17:53] You haven't changed what the joke is.

[17:54] I mean, but yeah, but it's not wrong.

[17:56] I mean, he is totally a gay robot.

[17:58] He's one of those characters who, I've always loved C-3PO.

[18:00] And I think that was one where like, not until I was older was I like, oh, I see this, this

[18:04] kind of, this kind of stereotype that he's, that he could be his.

[18:06] But I was always just like, yeah, I love that he's always complaining.

[18:09] I love that he's very specific about what he wants or doesn't want.

[18:13] He's fussy.

[18:13] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Alonso Duralde

[18:14] He is totally the, he's the Franklin Pangborn of the Star Wars universe.

[18:19] Yes.

[18:19] I love Franklin Pangborn.

[18:21] The, you know, in the 90s, there was a webzine called Blair, named of course, for the character

[18:27] from the Facts of Life.

[18:28] And they had an article called Lamar Luttrell is the Total God of You.

[18:34] And it was a celebration of the Lamar Luttrell character from Revenge of the Nerds, whom you

[18:41] may recall, like, you know, when they're, when they have, they have the field day with

[18:45] the other frats, like they, they, they, the, the physicists, the physicists and the nerds

[18:50] design a javelin that can be thrown with his limp-wristed style that makes it go further.

[18:56] But again, Lamar Luttrell is fully himself and he is one of the nerds.

[19:03] So he is one of our heroes.

[19:04] He is one of the put-upon characters.

[19:06] The other nerds accept him.

[19:08] So any blowback that he receives from straight people, you know, in every sense of that word

[19:14] in this movie, just makes him part of our underdog heroes.

[19:18] So as, as much as there are elements of that character that you could point to as being kind

[19:22] of silly and stereotypical, you know, he, again, gets to win.

[19:27] Yeah.

Elliott Kalan

[19:28] Yeah.

[19:28] So is that, is that how, when you're looking at, would you say that's, that's the way to

[19:32] look at kind of like judging the, um, for lack of a better word, like offensiveness or

[19:37] inoffensiveness of the characters is also kind of like, how does the, how does the character

[19:40] treated within the, the, the narrative in terms of like, are the, are we on their side and

[19:45] not just judging it based on, are they, are they enacting stereotypes that are, you know,

[19:50] that we recognize are, can be, can be used in a, in offensive ways.

Alonso Duralde

[19:54] Yeah.

[19:54] I think so.

[19:55] Because I mean, I think, I think the narrative has a voice about what we're meant to think

[20:00] about these characters and how we're meant to understand whether they are good or bad

[20:04] or, you know, uh, uh, heroic or villainous or whatever it is.

[20:08] Um, there's a terrible movie from the late sixties called the gay deceivers.

[20:13] And it's about these two dudes who pretend to be a gay couple so that they can avoid getting

[20:19] drafted and sent to Vietnam.

[20:21] Oh, it's like Three's Company, the movie.

[20:23] Yeah.

[20:23] Kind of.

[20:24] Yeah.

[20:25] And so, so to maintain the illusion of it, they move in together in this apartment complex

[20:29] in West Hollywood that is run by a guy named Malcolm DeJohn.

[20:33] And the actor playing him is the great Michael Greer.

[20:36] You might know him from Messiah of Evil or Fortune in Men's Eyes.

[20:40] And he basically rewrote the character and turns him, what could have very easily just

[20:47] been a sort of swishy stereotype joke into this like fabulous presence who is nobody's fool

[20:55] and is, uh, large and in charge.

[20:58] And he makes that movie worth watching because he is so in charge of the situation and such

[21:04] a fun character and such a character who is in control of his domain.

[21:09] Um, that yeah, even though the movie itself is patently offensive on numerous occasions

[21:15] and all the stuff with the straight lead characters is just like, they say some shit you wouldn't

[21:19] believe, you know, but you just, you're waiting for Malcolm DeJohn to come back on screen

[21:25] and just be fabulous and put the whole thing in his pocket.

[21:28] Mm-hmm.

Dan McCoy

[21:29] I will say that even, even when it's a, a positive description in like, this is a hero way,

[21:36] sometimes the stuff that we grew up with, I remember like, part of me is like, oh, I,

[21:43] it's really to my parent and my brother's credit, uh, bringing me up that, uh, even as like

[21:49] a straight male living in cornfields in the Midwest, I was able to look at Mannequin and be like,

[21:58] this Hollywood character is a, is a bit much.

[22:01] It's, it's kind of insulting, I think, to, uh, I think it's in a, it's playing into some

[22:06] stereotypes here.

Alonso Duralde

[22:08] Yeah.

[22:09] I mean, again, I think a lot of it has to do with who's telling this story, you know,

[22:13] like did a queer person write it or direct it?

[22:15] Um, is there a queer actor, you know, playing the role?

[22:18] Is the character, you know, allowed to have a love life or a sex life, you know, or are

[22:24] they just there to be the shoulder to cry on or the, the, the helper, the, the magical homo,

[22:31] if you will, of the straight, you know, protagonist.

[22:34] I, like, I always talk about how, you know, uh, you know, Hallmark movies have the black

[22:39] friend on phone, which is, you know, the woman, the, the friend that the white heroine will

[22:43] talk to throughout the movie to tell her what's going on with her relationship and, and the

[22:47] supportive black friend does a lot of nodding on the phone.

Elliott Kalan

[22:50] And it's kind of like, kind of like so many horror movies have the person of color who has

[22:53] a closer connection to the supernatural and can tell the white hero what's going on with

[22:57] the thing that's haunting them or cursing them.

[22:59] Yeah.

[22:59] Exactly.

Alonso Duralde

[23:02] Is, is it the horror of Party Beach that has the maid who keeps saying it's the voodoo

[23:07] I tells you?

[23:07] Yes.

Elliott Kalan

[23:09] Although the funniest, but she's also the smartest character in that movie because there's the

[23:12] part where he goes, she's looking for sodium to destroy these monsters.

[23:15] And he goes, I called a couple of places and I can't find it.

[23:18] And she goes, you call every place.

[23:19] She yells at him, call all of them.

Alonso Duralde

[23:23] Huh?

[23:23] Hey, I hadn't thought about that.

[23:26] But yeah, so you have like, I think there are a lot of times where the gay character is

[23:29] there to like give the heroine a makeover, you know, or whatever to just sort of be in

[23:34] service of, but not have any actual inner life of their own.

[23:38] So, I mean, yeah, I think at least with, with Hollywood in, in, in the first or second movie,

[23:43] I think he's got like an implied boyfriend, right?

[23:46] I, it's been so long since I've seen either of them.

[23:48] I don't remember, but, but yeah.

[23:49] Do you watch Mannequin all the time a lot?

[23:51] I know.

[23:52] It's one of my many failings.

Elliott Kalan

[23:53] What do you do during Mannequin's giving?

[23:55] What are you watching?

[23:59] But that reminds me.

[24:00] So I think one of the earlier ones where I think I might've been for fully aware is a

[24:05] character is it's like that is the, is the Harvey Fierstein character in Mrs. Doubtfire.

[24:10] Oh yeah.

[24:10] It's like, where it's like he is there to give Robin Williams a, a makeover into a, it to

[24:15] be a woman.

[24:16] But also like he does have a husband or at least a partner, you know, a long-term partner

[24:19] who's living with him.

[24:20] Like you do get a sense that he has a life outside of appearing in this, the scene.

Alonso Duralde

[24:24] Yeah.

[24:24] That couple is referred to as like uncle Jim and aunt Jack or something, whatever the characters

[24:29] are.

[24:29] Like, like it is very clearly stated they're a couple and for a kid's movie in the nineties,

[24:34] that's a huge leap forward.

[24:37] You know, like the fact that these two people, they're not just roommates or not just pals.

[24:41] They are referred to as aunt and uncle.

[24:42] Even though that's a joke, that at least is a joke that says they're a couple.

[24:46] This is how you know them in our family.

[24:49] So yeah, that, that in a, in a tiny way is actually a big step forward.

Elliott Kalan

[24:52] It's such a weird, it's such a weird thing where there, there's a, because, because sexuality

[24:58] as with race is such a messy thing in terms of like people's understanding or acceptance

[25:04] of things that are different from them.

[25:06] There's so many movies like that where it's like, this is a little bit more progressive

[25:10] than you would think, but it's also kind of regressive in this other way.

[25:13] Like those characters do it, are also like makeup and mask experts who are there to like

[25:17] put him, give him, put him through a makeup, uh, uh, uh, montage basically.

[25:23] Um, and you see that it's like, it's a, it's, it's hard to find that clear cut of like,

[25:28] oh, well this is a good version of it.

[25:29] This is a bad version of it because you're also living within the stereotypical assumptions

[25:34] of the world that the movie is existing in and reflecting and stuff like that.

[25:38] And, um, but you're right.

[25:40] It's a, it's a big thing in that movie that it's like, oh yeah, they're members of our

[25:42] family.

[25:43] We have no question about their relationship.

[25:44] Like that's, we love them and this is, and this is how they love and that's it.

[25:47] You know, it's just for taking for granted.

Alonso Duralde

[25:49] And I think the fact that these guys are like working with latex and stuff, it's not just

[25:53] like, oh, I'm going to give you a smoky eye.

[25:55] Exactly.

[25:56] You know, they're artists.

Elliott Kalan

[25:57] They don't work at a, it's not, oh yeah, my, my, my swishy brother-in-law who works at

[26:01] a salon, you know, it's like, oh, these are, these are professional makeup artists.

[26:04] Yeah.

[26:04] They make masks.

Alonso Duralde

[26:05] If one of the, if one of the looks they had given Robin Williams was like, you know,

[26:08] the T-1000 with like one robot eye sticking out, that would, that would be, you know.

Dan McCoy

[26:13] I don't think you're going to get this job as a nanny.

Elliott Kalan

[26:17] Now, now I wish that was it.

[26:18] That instead of like different types of women in that montage, she was like different monsters.

[26:20] That would have really butchered them up, you know.

[26:22] We can do everything.

[26:24] He keeps terrifying the kids as he comes home and tries to be.

Alonso Duralde

[26:29] Yeah, I don't think we want to hire the gill man as our nanny.

[26:33] This is kind of off to the side.

Elliott Kalan

[26:36] What a great, what a great movie that would be if it's like, it's not just that he's,

[26:39] he's pretending to be a nanny, but he's pretending to be a monster nanny.

[26:41] And it's like, yeah, we wanted to hire a monster.

[26:43] That's called monster nanny.

[26:45] Yeah.

[26:46] A mummy would be obvious.

[26:47] Make that right.

[26:48] A mummy is obvious.

Dan McCoy

[26:49] Yeah.

[26:50] Dude, mummy's too easy.

[26:51] Too easy.

[26:51] Yeah.

[26:52] This is kind of off to the side of like the current part of what we're talking about.

[26:56] But I was thinking about like how growing up in rural Illinois at a time when like, you

[27:03] know, any gay people around me would have been closeted mostly.

[27:10] I, it just, what it did to my ability to pick up on any sort of subtext in anything, which

[27:16] is to say like, I didn't have it as a child.

[27:18] But I just remember watching, you know, fried green tomatoes and being like, I think these

[27:26] women are more than just friends, you know, based on an expressly lesbian novel.

[27:33] But, but in the movie they took out, you know, any sort of.

[27:37] Yeah.

Alonso Duralde

[27:37] That's, that's a, that's an infuriating adaptation.

[27:40] No, no.

[27:40] Because they really pull back from it.

[27:42] But Dan, you had the same experience.

[27:43] When I found out, I was very mad.

Elliott Kalan

[27:44] You had the same experience.

[27:45] Let them be in love.

[27:46] Yeah.

[27:46] But Dan, you had the same experience when you watched Desert Hearts as a kid, right?

[27:50] Like they were like, I think these women might be.

[27:52] Something going on.

[27:52] Hold on.

[27:53] They're naked together in bed.

[27:55] And then when you watched Bound and you were like, I think these women might be.

[27:58] Hold on.

[28:00] You're like, female friendships, they're just so much more comfortable with each other.

Alonso Duralde

[28:04] But, and, and again, I think, you know.

[28:06] That was pillifying.

[28:07] That's what the, with the early nineties, that was, that was, there was such a terror of

[28:12] that stuff because yeah, the, I mean, Fanny Flagg is a lesbian.

[28:16] Like, you know, she, she was, you know, involved with, with Rita Mae Brown for years.

[28:20] And so, and the book is pretty clear about that relationship.

[28:24] And I think if you'd made that movie 10 years later.

[28:26] The original title is Fried Green Lesbians.

[28:27] Yeah.

[28:28] Yeah, exactly.

[28:28] Yes.

Elliott Kalan

[28:30] But if you made it today.

[28:31] That's a great cafe.

[28:32] Horrifying.

[28:33] Do you think, do you think, and do you think if they made it today, do you think they would

[28:37] just not?

Alonso Duralde

[28:39] Yeah, I think they would, they would be, they would be very straightforward about it.

Stuart Wellington

[28:42] I do, I do remember this is, I mean, this is a little bit later and this speaks more to

[28:47] me confronting my own bullshit.

[28:49] But I remember, I think it was somewhere in college when, but I'm a cheerleader came out.

[28:55] Oh yeah.

[28:56] I feel like that was, not only was it very campy, but it was also like such an overt,

[29:01] like a depiction of a lesbian, like lesbian coming, coming of understanding and lesbian

[29:09] romance.

[29:09] And I feel like at the time it was, it felt very confrontational to me because I feel

[29:15] like it was very much a moment of college Stuart who was already insecure being like, but wait,

[29:21] I'm not necessary anymore.

[29:23] And like, it was something that it took me.

[29:25] Where's the me in all this?

[29:26] Yeah, I had to, like I had to unpack at the time and obviously have come to understand.

Elliott Kalan

[29:31] I've been led to believe I'm at the center of human civilization.

[29:33] What's going on?

Stuart Wellington

[29:34] But I mean, that does come from the fact that, you know, similar to Dan, I came from a fairly

[29:39] Midwestern closeted universe.

Dan McCoy

[29:46] I think I've told this story before, but I just think he deserves his, his plaudits whenever

[29:53] I can give it to him.

[29:54] I remember very clearly when I was young, my brother, John, saying to me for some reason,

[29:58] like, I don't know what the context was.

[30:00] It was like, you're going to grow up, you're going to fall in love with a woman, or you might

[30:03] fall in love with a man.

[30:04] You might be gay and that's okay too.

[30:06] And I'll love you no matter what.

[30:07] And I'm like, looking back on that, given that so young, I'm so appreciative that he did

[30:15] that because I don't, I feel like it really did mean that I'm like, oh yeah, sure.

[30:20] That's fine.

[30:21] You know, I grew up feeling.

Elliott Kalan

[30:22] But now, you know, looking back, you should have said, it doesn't have to be a binary,

[30:26] you know?

Dan McCoy

[30:26] Yeah, yeah.

[30:27] No, no.

[30:27] He's canceled.

[30:29] He was.

[30:29] He's canceled.

[30:30] He didn't address every possible situation.

Alonso Duralde

[30:35] You could find yourself in a polycule, you know.

[30:40] But, you know, to Stuart's point, yeah, there are movies that come along that really, you

[30:45] know, shake it up.

[30:47] And I think get, you know, Desert Heart certainly was one of those movies.

[30:50] For me, I remember going with my best friend in college, Kurt Holman, to see both My Beautiful

[31:00] Laundrette and Prick Up Your Ears.

[31:04] Both of which have these, you know, are like, you know, like My Beautiful Laundrette has that

[31:08] amazing scene where they're out in the street and Daniel Day-Lewis secretly like licks the

[31:12] guy's neck, you know, and prick up your ears.

[31:15] You know, they're like cottaging, you know, they're like going to public men's rooms and

[31:19] picking up dudes and stuff.

[31:21] And both of those movies, I remember sitting there being like, stone face, stone face, no

[31:26] reaction, do not.

[31:27] Don't show the world.

[31:28] Don't show the world what this means to me.

[31:30] Don't, do not gasp, nothing.

[31:32] Just keep it on lockdown, you know.

[31:34] And obviously when I, Kurt was one of the first people I came out to and he was great about

[31:38] it, but I wasn't ready to go there yet.

[31:40] But these movies were showing me something that I hadn't seen before and this was not

[31:43] the fan, you know.

[31:45] This was like, even though things don't work out well for Joe Wharton at the end of Prick

[31:49] Up Your Ears, nonetheless, it's not directly tied to him having sex with people.

[31:53] So, yeah, so I think it's great when you see that movie that isn't like a big Hollywood

[32:01] production that suddenly is like, you know, oh, wait a minute, there's, this is also a

[32:05] thing.

[32:06] Although now, I mean, I guess for some people it could be a Hollywood production.

[32:09] You could see Love, Simon or something and it would, you know, change your, your perspective

[32:15] on, on what this stuff even means, you know.

Elliott Kalan

[32:17] Well, it's the, I mean, it's the, it's the value of having, it's the value of storytelling

[32:21] and, and many different people telling stories, right?

[32:24] Is it's like, I think it gets boiled down to, to the idea of representation, but that's

[32:29] like a simple, it's like a very simple, basic way to look at it.

[32:32] But the idea of like, you could, it's not just the, the thrill of going and seeing something

[32:38] that you haven't seen before that means something to you particularly on screen, but seeing

[32:43] something that, that is outside of the realm of what you understood was possible in, in any

[32:47] way.

[32:47] Like that's the magic of stories and movies and things like that.

Alonso Duralde

[32:50] You know, it's the Ebert line that everybody always likes to quote, that the machine, the

[32:53] movies are a machine that creates empathy, you know.

Elliott Kalan

[32:55] Yeah, I have an issue with that quote.

[32:56] I have an issue with that quote, but still, you know.

[32:59] Because I think, I think movies can also be used to create hatred, you know.

[33:02] The quote is, well, of course, yeah.

Dan McCoy

[33:04] It is a machine that creates only empathy.

[33:06] Yeah.

[33:07] I find my, but I think that's about every possible.

Elliott Kalan

[33:10] But I think that's often, but I think that's often how the quote is used.

[33:13] The same way that like, there's a, the same way that.

[33:16] They can create a quote.

[33:17] They can create, well, the same way that people talk about like, and this is totally

[33:20] off topic, so I apologize.

[33:22] When they're like, comedy is only funny when it punches up.

[33:24] Well, that's not true.

[33:25] Like there is, the part of the problem with comedy is that it can be funny when it punches

[33:28] down.

[33:29] So you've got to be a discerning audience, you know.

[33:31] True.

Alonso Duralde

[33:32] Anyway.

[33:33] But I do think that seeing characters that are, you know, not you in a movie, you know,

[33:39] that's where the empathy part comes in.

[33:41] And so, yeah, I think for a lot of people, their awareness that A, queer people exist and

[33:48] B, queer people have a right to exist and, you know, are not a direct threat to them and

[33:53] just want to live their own lives and, you know, fall in love in their own way.

[33:57] You know, I think for a lot of people, movies provide the, the, the, the way for them to

[34:02] get there.

[34:03] But to Elliot's point, I think also a lot of homophobia is probably engendered by what

[34:08] people saw in movies in the like late 60s and 70s and beyond because, you know, we were

[34:14] invisible pretty much during the, the, the Hays Code period.

Elliott Kalan

[34:17] You look at like the movie, you look at the movie version of Cat on a Hot Tin Roof.

[34:20] Well, you're like, what's this guy's problem?

[34:22] I don't understand.

[34:22] What's Rick upset about?

[34:23] His best friend died.

[34:25] That's pretty sad, but I don't know why he's impotent now.

[34:27] And it's like, oh, it's because he was in love with him.

[34:29] Oh, I understand.

[34:30] Yeah.

[34:31] Yeah.

Alonso Duralde

[34:32] Or, or, or like, you know, Crossfire, you know, which was a book about a gay bashing

[34:36] that becomes a movie about antisemitism.

[34:38] Okay, sure.

[34:38] You know.

Elliott Kalan

[34:39] They were like, we can admit that Jews exist now.

[34:43] It's a bolder step for American cinema.

[34:45] And like you're saying in those movies in the 60s and 70s where, where being queer is synonymous

[34:49] with being psychotic essentially in some way, you know, or sadistic in some way, you know.

[34:54] Or pathetic, you know, that's also, that was also an option.

Stuart Wellington

[34:57] Like there's like a, at least for me, I feel like a lot of what I saw in movies was a,

[35:02] a certain seediness, a certain danger.

[35:05] And, but at the same time, there was like the, the femininity or like anything that others

[35:11] something so that it's like, stay away person.

Elliott Kalan

[35:14] And, and they were talking about with, with queer men in particular, because there's, you

[35:17] would have similar, not as often we'd see in movies, queer women who were, they're, they're,

[35:22] they're, it's the same problem because they're super butch.

[35:24] They're super masculine, you know, super tough, you know.

Stuart Wellington

[35:27] Super butch or they're like scheming to try and take women away from men.

[35:33] Super butch also sounds like a great, like sort of zine comic.

Elliott Kalan

[35:37] Super butch is like an underground comic.

[35:39] You'd be buying a head shop, an underground comics book.

[35:41] Yeah.

Alonso Duralde

[35:41] Her, her four issue team up with hothead Paisan is a very collectible.

Elliott Kalan

[35:48] But it's, it's a, it's interesting.

[35:50] I mean, it shows you how like a movie reflects the, the assumptions or the, or the stereotype

[35:56] society, but then it also perpetuates them at the same time.

[35:58] You know, and it's a, and like, there's a lot of people who, I certainly like, there are,

[36:03] I remember when, I remember seeing the first time I saw Blackula and there's like, there's,

[36:08] there's, Blackula's coffin is discovered by these antique dealers who are very much, you

[36:11] know, like stereotypes of swishy gay men of, you know, in the seventies.

[36:15] And it's one of these things where it's like, oh, so like these characters are like, they

[36:19] don't, of course they have no, the plot does not need them to have much of an interior

[36:24] life.

[36:24] They're just there to like bring Blackula back to life.

[36:27] To be bitten.

[36:27] Yeah, to be bitten.

[36:28] But it's like the, that trying to parse when I saw it, like, what is the reaction they

[36:35] intended the audience to have to these characters?

[36:37] Because were they supposed to be comic relief characters or was it supposed to be some other

[36:42] aspect of like, oh, this is a horror movie.

[36:44] So there's like, these are these kind of other kind of deviant type people.

[36:47] It's like, it was a very strange thing to me.

[36:49] It was also.

[36:49] Deserving of their fate.

[36:50] Yes, or something like that.

[36:51] But the characters were, it was a, and I like, it became like a real, I had a lot of trouble

[36:56] enjoying the rest of Blackula because I kept thinking about, I kept trying to parse this

[37:00] part of a problem.

[37:01] Otherwise, it's an impeccable movie, you know?

Stuart Wellington

[37:04] Such a funny statement.

[37:06] Yeah.

Alonso Duralde

[37:07] I mean, because like, you go back to silent cinema and you see examples of like, oh God,

[37:14] I forget the movie now.

[37:15] But there's some movies like set in the West or whatever.

[37:17] And one character, somebody sees like Charlie Chaplin kissing a woman in drag and thinks

[37:24] that Charlie has just kissed a man.

[37:25] And so this guy immediately starts like flouncing about in this very specific way.

[37:30] And it's like, oh, this was coded in the 1920s.

[37:33] People already knew what these arm movements and little, you know, hip swishes and whatever

[37:39] tiptoe walking meant, you know?

[37:41] And so, yeah, I think it's an easy laugh for audiences who assume, well, nobody in this

[37:45] room is that.

[37:47] So let's all find that hilarious, you know?

[37:50] But yeah, I think Stuart's right.

[37:51] There's also that, what I think Andrew Serres once referred to as the Twilight Demi Mond,

[37:57] you know, the sort of, you know, the seedy underbelly of the big city where, you know,

[38:01] the gays and the heroin addicts all gather, you know?

Elliott Kalan

[38:06] And they're always looking for victims.

[38:08] Yeah.

[38:08] They're always looking to corrupt somebody into a world of, into a dangerous world of antiquing

[38:15] and listening to Judy Garland albums or whatever else, whatever other stereotypical things

[38:20] they're doing.

[38:21] Because that's, because it's the, it's like, it's that weird, yeah, it's that weird flip

[38:24] thing of the stereotype is either pitiful and weak or incredibly sinister and dangerous,

[38:29] but they exist in this together.

[38:32] And because they, and they exist as a, an opposition to what I guess is supposed to be like for

[38:38] men, especially like the proper role or proper whatever, you know?

Alonso Duralde

[38:41] Well, and again, it's that, we see this today in like the, you know, ask a hard right conservative

[38:48] and they will tell you that, you know, immigrants to this country are both lazy welfare mooches

[38:55] and they're taking all your jobs.

[38:57] Yeah.

[38:57] You know, so you somehow manage to do both those things at the same time because they're

[39:01] all bad.

Elliott Kalan

[39:02] And it's the similar thing, it's the similar thing with, with, with antisemitism has always

[39:05] been that way where Jews are both kind of subhuman vermin, but they're also so incredibly brilliant

[39:11] that they managed to control the entire world and take over everything despite, despite having,

[39:16] despite being like weak and having none of the strengths of, you know, of the Gentile human

[39:21] beings.

[39:21] It's a, it's a, it's a, it really goes to show you that there's not really much rational

[39:24] in bigotry, you know?

[39:28] It's never based.

[39:29] Didn't think it's true enough.

[39:29] No, it's never based on a really, on a really straightforward, consistent philosophy.

[39:34] There's a, um, I just.

Dan McCoy

[39:35] Well, it is.

[39:37] We hate you.

[39:38] We hate you.

[39:39] That part is consistent.

[39:40] I don't listen to consistently.

[39:42] I don't like you, you know?

[39:43] Yeah.

[39:48] Ready, go.

[39:49] Knock, knock.

[39:50] Who's there?

[39:51] We got this.

[39:52] With Mark and Hal?

[39:53] You knew this one.

[39:57] You can't put that out as an ad.

Alonso Duralde

[39:59] We just did.

[40:00] New episodes every week on MaximumFun.org or wherever you get your podcasts.

[40:04] Now it's hewn in rock.

[40:06] Hewn in rock?

[40:07] Yeah.

[40:08] How do you hew something in rock?

Dan McCoy

[40:10] With a chisel.

[40:11] There's only one hew in rock and it's Huey Lewis.

Alonso Duralde

[40:15] And the news is we got this with Mark and Hal is available every week on MaximumFun.org.

S5

[40:20] I walked right into that.

[40:23] Wonderful is a podcast where we talk about things we like.

[40:29] That's hard to sell in a promo like this.

[40:31] So we've enlisted the help of piano rock superstar Billy Joel to tell you about some of the topics we've covered.

[40:36] Take it away, real Billy Joel.

Elliott Kalan

[40:38] Diddy Rocksman, Odd Lake Sign, Wilson Shire, Circle Time, Sega Dreamcast, Caesar, Salad Tower of Annoyed.

S5

[40:45] Keep me up, eight-time capsules, Wayne's World, Cheese Bulls, Wallace, Stevens, Donkey Kong, Fun Size, Almond Joy.

[40:51] They didn't start the podcast.

[40:54] Except that's not true.

[40:56] They didn't want it to.

[40:58] They didn't start the podcast.

[41:01] No, they actually did.

[41:02] That was in fact a fib.

[41:05] Listen to Wonderful every Wednesday on MaximumFun.org or wherever you get your podcasts.

[41:09] Thanks, Real Billy Joel.

Dan McCoy

[41:11] No problem, Griffin.

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Stuart Wellington

[44:12] So, I feel like it was in the 90s, not to shift too much, but in the 90s, I feel like there was also a shift where we did see,

[44:19] you had mentioned before, but it felt like there was an increased representation of gay characters.

[44:25] But on some level, it felt like these characters were often presented where their chief struggle is against the repercussions of them being gay.

[44:38] So, by having sex with a person of the same gender, they're going to die or something.

Elliott Kalan

[44:45] Yeah, I mean…

[44:46] It's the 90s version of the tragic mulatto.

[44:48] You know, like their lot in life is to suffer and eventually pay for the sins of humanity.

[44:53] You know, yeah.

Alonso Duralde

[44:54] Yeah, the 90s, there's a lot going on because first you've got, on the one hand, you have like the new queer cinema.

[44:59] You know, like in 90, Poison and Paris is Burning both win the jury prizes at Sundance, you know.

[45:06] And suddenly you've got like Greg Araki and Gus Van Sant and Rose Trochet and, you know, Cheryl Dunye and all these filmmakers who are…

[45:13] Who are…

[45:14] Well, John Waters.

[45:15] He is our…

[45:17] I mean, all degrees.

Elliott Kalan

[45:18] It's so funny.

[45:19] John Waters is like…

[45:20] I mean, he's the…

[45:21] Like, I think about this all the time that like you watch his older movies and they're genuinely filthy.

[45:26] Like, they're genuinely like really out-trade.

Alonso Duralde

[45:29] Yeah, they earn the word subversive in a way a lot of movies don't.

Elliott Kalan

[45:33] And just by lasting, he has become such a like mainstream beloved figure in a way that like…

[45:40] It reminds me so much.

[45:41] I mean, this is the negative way to put it.

[45:42] But the line in Chinatown when they're talking about…

[45:45] When John Huston has the line about like that rich people are like…

[45:49] They're like ugly buildings and prostitutes.

[45:52] If they last long enough, they become respectable.

Alonso Duralde

[45:55] Well, I think Mick Jagger said, you know, in America, they try to ban you and then they put you in a museum.

[46:00] Yeah.

[46:01] Which…

[46:02] And both of those things have literally happened to John Waters.

Elliott Kalan

[46:04] So, yeah.

[46:06] So, you're saying…

[46:07] So, you had this…

[46:08] You had this…

[46:09] In the 90s, you had this like outburst of…

Alonso Duralde

[46:11] Yeah, you have this indie boom, you know, of like…

[46:14] Of low-budget queer films.

[46:15] And then kind of this sort of like crossover into commercial and even mainstream movies where suddenly they're like, oh, there's money to be had here.

[46:24] Because we were such a starved audience at that point.

[46:27] We would run out to see whatever it was, you know.

Elliott Kalan

[46:29] With, let's face it, disposable income.

[46:31] Because, you know, it's…

[46:31] You're not wasting them on children most of the time like I am.

Alonso Duralde

[46:34] Yeah, they're all dicks, right?

[46:35] Well, I mean later, not so much.

[46:37] But yes, at that time, sure, let's say yes.

[46:40] But, you know, so then you start getting movies like In-N-Out or even like, you know, a Jeffrey.

[46:49] You know, where like you get…

[46:51] Like big names are attached and you're getting released into like, you know, big city art houses and maybe even some suburban multiplexes.

[46:58] Philadelphia?

[46:59] Is that in there?

[47:00] Yeah, that's…

[47:01] I mean, that's right in there.

[47:02] But that falls more in the category of like the sort of…

[47:05] That's almost like a movie Stanley Kramer could have made.

[47:07] Yeah, that's a message picture.

[47:09] Exactly, about social issues, you know.

[47:11] But an important one, you know.

[47:13] And I think for a lot of people, their first time seeing a queer character who was the hero and who was played by Tom frickin' Hanks, you know.

[47:21] And they get to follow Denzel's journey of going from like homophobic and AIDS phobic and, you know, not wanting to deal with this stuff to completely accepting and loving this other, you know, character and wanting to save him and wanting to, you know, like help him seek justice.

[47:41] But yeah, I think also like there is that thing of the 90s.

[47:45] There's that residual, you know, AIDS panic certainly.

[47:48] I think it manifests itself probably most vividly in the what we call the Michael Douglas sexual panic trilogy.

[47:55] You know, fatal attraction, basic instinct and disclosure, which are completely heterosexual movies, but they're all about AIDS really.

[48:03] Because they're about like, you know, married dudes, you stray and it's going to blow up in your face and you better watch it.

Stuart Wellington

[48:10] He is just so fuckable is the thing.

[48:13] That's true.

Dan McCoy

[48:14] When you're that hot, what are you going to do?

[48:17] He has so much sex, he gave him cancer.

Elliott Kalan

[48:20] Dan, that's not how it happened.

[48:22] What?

[48:23] I mean, it could be.

Stuart Wellington

[48:24] No, it can't.

[48:26] Yeah, it can.

[48:26] It can.

[48:27] That's actually, that's actually, yeah.

[48:29] It actually can.

[48:30] I mean, I actually have a friend who just got through that same cancer from likely the same cause from HPV.

Elliott Kalan

[48:38] Well, maybe that's how it happened with Michael Douglas then.

[48:40] I don't know.

[48:41] So, I mean, I just wouldn't conflate him as a real person with the characters he played in the movies.

[48:46] Like, he wasn't, it's not like those experiences in fatal attraction and basically things that actually happened to him.

[48:51] What?

[48:53] I thought those were documentaries.

[48:56] Glenn Close is alive?

[48:59] Ah, someone stop her.

[49:01] But the bunny's okay, right?

[49:04] Stuart, I got to talk to you after the show.

Stuart Wellington

[49:07] That bunny is still alive today.

Alonso Duralde

[49:12] So, yeah, I just, you know, you guys talk about, like, you know, 80s exploitation a lot.

[49:18] You know, it's clearly, I think, movies that meant a lot to you guys.

[49:22] And I just find that's such a fascinating period in terms of, you know, it was sort of the last gasp of like, oh, you're just going to say faggot out loud.

[49:30] Yeah.

[49:30] We're all supposed to accept that, you know.

[49:33] And so, yeah, you know, it's not like we can't still point to movies and be like, oh, I can't, this is problematic.

[49:41] Or I question your, you know, what you were thinking with this.

[49:45] But I think I'm going to say for the most part, we, you know, we were not, we're no longer in those waters.

Dan McCoy

[49:53] Yeah.

[49:54] For the most part.

[49:54] No, it is.

[49:55] Yeah.

[49:56] There are several reasons why being a fan of, like, 80s trash, like, really, like, hurts my heart in certain ways.

Elliott Kalan

[50:05] I mean, I think anytime you're a fan of trash, like, trash is going to reflect, no matter how great certain essence it is, trash is going to reflect the, often the worst of a, because it's going for the basest instincts.

[50:18] Yeah.

[50:18] Not the most basic instincts, but the basest instincts.

[50:20] And so, like, it's going to reflect that stuff.

[50:22] But it's also, like, that's the price you pay by loving culture is that you don't get to just, you can, you want to find pleasure in the things from before.

[50:31] And the world has not always been what it is.

[50:33] It's not, you know, people have not always been as understanding as they are.

[50:36] And so, it's like, it's the same thing with, like, we talk about movies because it's a movie podcast, but, like, it's the same thing with books or plays or, you know, any depiction of reality is going to reflect the understandings of reality of the people who made it.

[50:52] And their limitations.

[50:54] Exactly.

[50:54] And their limitations, which is not to excuse it, but it also means that, like, you just got to be ready for it.

Stuart Wellington

[50:59] And maybe, and there's, this may be a little bit selfish, but there's something about watching, like, trash cinema where you're put now as an older person who's maybe a little more enlightened.

[51:12] You're able to look back and be like, I can identify that as gross.

[51:17] And that signifies that I am a better person than I am.

[51:20] So, I feel better.

[51:22] You're like, I'm still watching this.

Elliott Kalan

[51:24] I'm still watching this, but I can identify the parts.

Alonso Duralde

[51:27] I'm not that much better.

[51:29] But it's also like, it's like, when this came out, this is things that people felt comfortable saying out loud, you know?

[51:35] And, like, they were, they, they, this was a bit that they were happy to commit to and they didn't see any problem with it.

[51:41] When Criterion recently put out Risky Business, which is a movie that I was obsessed with in high school, Glenn Kenney did this great piece.

[51:48] It was like, thank God it holds up.

[51:51] Like, it's, there's nothing in this movie that is so glaringly 80s.

[51:54] Like, there's even, there is a trans sex worker in that movie and they are treated with respect in Risky Business.

[52:02] And it's just like, whew.

[52:04] Because so much, so much from the 80s.

[52:05] I mean, my God, the early John Hughes, Ofra.

Stuart Wellington

[52:08] You're just like, oh, did we do that?

[52:12] It's such a joy to find older stuff and assume it's going to not hold up and then be like, oh, wow.

[52:17] Like, I mean, this is a dumb one, but like re-watching old episodes of Night Court, I'm like, wow, Dan Fielding was actually fairly progressive.

[52:25] Just by being like a Lothario.

Alonso Duralde

[52:27] Yeah.

[52:27] Well, look, as opposed to, you know, once the Gen Z started watching Friends during the pandemic, it was like, uh-oh.

Stuart Wellington

[52:35] Or Starship Troopers.

Alonso Duralde

[52:39] Well, Starship Troopers is a movie that people don't get and that's their problem.

Elliott Kalan

[52:42] That is so, it's so, I mean, I find it so funny when Starship Troopers came out that they were like, Paul Verhoeven doesn't realize he's made a pro Nazi movie.

[52:50] And it's like, dude, I think he knows what he's doing.

Dan McCoy

[52:53] I think a lot of people, and I'm going to make a national judgment here, maybe particularly in America, feel the need to like hold themselves above whatever they're watching,

[53:05] which allows them to make assumptions that like the blindingly obvious thing in front of them was like done by mistake somehow.

Alonso Duralde

[53:14] It's like, oh, does he know he's wearing a Nazi uniform?

Dan McCoy

[53:17] Yeah, like that's the signifier that is supposed to tell you how to feel about the movie.

Elliott Kalan

[53:23] Well, it's like, I mean, like I was saying about how they didn't like invent sex after the 30s.

[53:27] Like you watch a movie like The Gang's All Here and they have that whole dance number with those giant bananas and you're like, and they're like, did they realize these are phallic?

[53:34] Of course they did.

[53:35] They had penises then.

[53:36] Like they knew.

Alonso Duralde

[53:38] They'd been invented by that point.

[53:40] Yeah, look, I just started watching The Boys for the first time and I gobsmacked that anybody watched the first season of this show and didn't immediately get what the show was about.

[53:51] Like I remember hearing like somewhere on like episode three, people were like, oh my God, the show's gone all woke.

[53:56] And I'm like, it's right there from the beginning.

[53:59] Like he is not the hero.

[54:01] It's text.

[54:01] The Langer is not the good guy.

Elliott Kalan

[54:03] Well, I think there's a lot of people who they don't know how to read a story.

[54:07] Like they don't know how to read what the story is trying to tell them.

[54:09] But also when, especially when something is like Starship Troopers or like The Boys, they're using the, they're recontextualizing something to make it, to make a point, you know, that people just, they don't know how to understand that new context yet.

[54:24] And so they just assume that it means the thing that they've always expected it to mean.

[54:28] You know, like if you, if you did a movie where this would never happen, but if like John Wayne had done, or I guess maybe he did.

[54:36] I guess if you look at The Searchers and you look at like John Wayne's character in that is a racist and he is shut out from society, not just because, oh, he's too strong for this world, but because he cannot make the acceptances in his heart that he needs to in order to be a part of society.

[54:49] And, but you still, and it's, so it is, it is a, such a strong statement about that John Wayne character, but a lot of people still watch it and they're like, John Wayne, what a hero.

[54:59] He's the hero in the movie.

[55:00] Because I know John Wayne and he's in it.

[55:02] He must be the hero.

[55:03] It's the Rorschach.

Alonso Duralde

[55:04] I mean, that's kind of, I think that's kind of what, what doesn't work for me about Unforgiven is that Clint Eastwood is such an icon at that point.

[55:13] And for him to play this character who is so messed up, I sure were seeing it with an audience.

[55:17] And when he starts shooting everybody at the end and you're supposed to think, oh no, this character is now lost to the dark side of his soul.

[55:22] And they're all like, yeah, get him.

[55:24] They're like, do it, do it.

Elliott Kalan

[55:25] Yeah.

[55:26] Clint maybe, what a picture.

[55:28] What a picture.

[55:29] I mean, as much as I love Clint Eastwood's work and I think he is, I thought, I love Juror number two.

[55:33] I thought it was so, I thought that was such a.

[55:35] You and I differ, my friend.

[55:36] No, I really liked it a lot.

[55:37] Yeah, ditto.

[55:38] I really liked it a lot.

[55:39] But with Unforgiven, I think there is part of it where I'm like.

[55:40] Juror number three, I'll turn you guys around.

[55:42] The third one.

[55:42] Oh, yeah, yeah.

[55:43] Oh, I thought it really improved on Juror number one, which had potential, you know.

[55:47] But I think in Unforgiven, I wonder if there's a part of him.

[55:49] It got released for cause.

[55:51] If there's a part of him where he's like, I want to say this, but I don't quite know how to say this.

[55:54] And he falls back into kind of the old patterns also.

[55:57] Like, I feel like Unforgiven, it hits its point when they shoot that guy who's sitting in an outhouse.

[56:01] And then everything after that is like, yeah, all right.

[56:03] Like, that's, I mean, that's the moment of the movie that hit its point, you know, so.

Alonso Duralde

[56:07] Well, and to bring this back to our topic, like when Cruising came out in 1980,

[56:12] a lot of queer people were mad about that movie while it was being made because we'd been absent from the screen.

[56:18] And now here's this movie about like these serial killers in the leather world, you know.

Elliott Kalan

[56:22] And the same with Basic Instinct.

[56:24] When that came out, I remember the protests.

[56:25] Oh, yeah, for sure.

Alonso Duralde

[56:26] But in both cases, I think those movies have evolved in a way that like, for example,

[56:31] when Cruising was being made, a lot of people in the leather community were thrilled.

[56:34] They were like, oh, great, we're in a movie.

[56:36] Like, we are being shown as part of the queer community because so often, you know,

[56:40] this is in the era when like leather guys and drag queens were often being discouraged from like being in the parade

[56:46] because, you know, they weren't sort of like, you know, heteronormative, you know, assimilationist enough.

[56:53] But yeah, as Cruising ages, I think people have a lot of different reads on it.

[56:57] I mean, you can just look at that movie as this kind of like anthropological study of a New York that no longer exists, you know.

[57:04] That whole, the meatpacking district where all those bars are, those are condos now, you know.

[57:08] And the brambles and that community was about to get hit so hard by AIDS that that is this moment in history that is at least captured, you know.

[57:18] And Basic Instinct, same thing.

[57:20] A lot of lesbians have since sort of embraced that movie.

[57:24] It's like, Sharon Stone is a badass in this movie.

[57:27] She's in charge.

[57:28] She is calling all the plays.

[57:30] She is befuddling and bewitching everybody else in the movie.

[57:35] She's the smartest person in the movie by far.

[57:37] So it's like, you know, for a movie that at the time people were furious about because it was like yet another queer killer.

[57:44] She is such a cool customer and such a glamorous object and such a, you know, again, people are coming to her on her own terms that audiences respond to that.

[57:54] And I'm fine with queer villains in a context where there's queer everything.

Elliott Kalan

[57:59] Well, that's, I think that's, I think I was going to ask if you thought that was the difference maybe is that at a time when the only queer representation was as villains.

[58:07] Or victims.

[58:08] I was going to ask about Silence of the Lambs, for instance.

[58:11] Yeah.

[58:11] Like, that means something different than in a world where you have multiple types of queer characters.

[58:16] And so you can have a queer villain without it being like, this is the one version of it.

Alonso Duralde

[58:20] This is speaking for everyone.

[58:21] Yeah, totally.

[58:21] No, yeah.

[58:22] I think it makes a huge difference.

[58:23] And Silence of the Lambs, you know, is still argued about in queer circles.

[58:27] I think everybody acknowledges it's a great movie, obviously.

[58:30] It is, you know.

[58:31] It's a note, you're number two, but yeah, it's all right.

[58:33] Yeah, I mean, yeah, it'll do.

[58:35] But no, it is this extraordinary thriller.

[58:37] But it's like, you know, how are we meant to read this, you know, trans serial killer, essentially, who we're given this, you know.

[58:46] And I think, again, it's the context of like, are we seeing all kinds of trans characters?

[58:52] Are we seeing all kinds of queer characters?

[58:53] Or is this it, you know?

Stuart Wellington

[58:55] And partly because it's not only a great thriller, but it also is a presentation of like earthy American life, like steel town life.

[59:07] So you see like a lot of extras that look very regular and normal people.

[59:11] And then you have this one like seedy character.

[59:14] Like it further complicates it for me, at least.

Alonso Duralde

[59:19] Yeah, I mean, there's a lot with that character that I think, you know, in a world where you're seeing a variety of characters, a variety of, you know, trans mask, trans femme representation in movies, then it just becomes part of, you know, the tapestry.

[59:38] But at the time, you know, there were so few, I mean, G's and L's, let alone T's in movies.

[59:45] And certainly that were being presented as heroic or even protagonists.

[59:49] Yeah, I get why at the time that movie upset a lot of people.

[59:53] And, you know, you'll hear conflicting reports about whether or not Jonathan Demme went on to make Philadelphia as a mea culpa or not, you know, like who even knows.

[1:00:03] But, yeah, it has been fascinating.

[1:00:06] You know, we've been getting a lot of great trans voices in film criticism in the last few years.

[1:00:13] Like if you have not picked up Corpses, Fools, and Monsters by Willow Caitlin McClay and Caden Mark Gardner, that's a book that will actually tell you what's great about Glenn or Glenda.

[1:00:23] You know, like they will take these sort of texts that have been discarded and be like, well, actually this has this to say about the trans experience.

Elliott Kalan

[1:00:31] Glenn or Glenda may be one of the most progressive movies ever made in a lot of ways.

Alonso Duralde

[1:00:34] For the 50s, absolutely.

[1:00:35] Yeah.

[1:00:35] I mean, it's trying for something and it's trying to like, you know, make a plea for tolerance and understanding.

[1:00:41] At the moment at the end, it's not –

Dan McCoy

[1:00:42] And a plea for using Buffalo stock footage and things.

Elliott Kalan

[1:00:45] Yeah, I mean, it's like that the characters left not with like a rejection but instead with a like, well, let's figure out how to be together.

[1:00:55] Let's share Angora sweaters.

Alonso Duralde

[1:00:57] Yeah, exactly.

[1:00:58] You know, BJ and Harmony Colangelo wrote an entire book about Sleepaway Camp, which made trans people very angry at the time.

[1:01:08] Why?

[1:01:09] But I think, you know, there's a – I don't know.

[1:01:11] What were they so upset about?

[1:01:12] No, but I think there's a way that these texts exist where even something that is considered at the time like negative or, you know, like people used to think – and to this day still think like the boys in the band is a terrible representation of like queer life.

[1:01:30] But it's there and it's an attempt to at least tap into some real truths and an acknowledgement of our existence.

[1:01:38] You know, like I'll even say during the Hays Code years, you know, you could pick apart Hitchcock, you know, giving us like Mrs. Danvers and Rebecca or –

[1:01:48] Or Bruno and Strangers on the Train or –

[1:01:50] Yeah, exactly.

[1:01:50] Robert Walker's character or like, you know, or Norman Bates or whoever as being these negative representations.

[1:01:56] But it's like, but at least we're there.

Elliott Kalan

[1:01:58] Yeah, I guess that's –

[1:01:59] You know.

[1:01:59] I guess that's the question is would you rather – the question would you rather be invisible or would you rather be acknowledged in a less than positive way, you know?

Alonso Duralde

[1:02:07] Yeah, neither are great choices.

[1:02:08] They're both terrible choices.

[1:02:10] You know, and I think it's the fact that we've moved past those two choices that now allows us to look back at the negative ones and say like, well, at least they, you know, they got this or they included us in this or they make this acknowledgement.

[1:02:25] Like, you know, I think it's too easy to just dismiss something as terrible or reprehensible or, you know, negative.

[1:02:33] But if you approach it in a different way, you know, my God, I just read like a fascinating book about the history of the children's hour on screen from these three, which was the sort of cleaned up version to the eventual movie of it.

[1:02:47] Like, yeah, I think that any text, even if it was reviled at the time, can later yield some kind of insight into the queer experience as it was, you know, either being lived or at least being perceived and understood by straight people.

Elliott Kalan

[1:03:03] The people who, for better or worse, have been the main storytellers for quite some time.

[1:03:10] Who keep taking the jobs.

[1:03:12] Yeah, unfortunately.

[1:03:13] Yeah, yeah.

[1:03:15] So the, we should, we should start to wrap up, but are there particular, are there, I was wondering if there are either, you mentioned, you mentioned just now Corpses, Fools and Monsters, but like, are there other books or are there, are there recent movies or forgotten movies that you would recommend to people?

[1:03:33] We are like, this is worth watching, not just for historical purposes, but like, this is, you know, this is one that you're really going to get something.

Alonso Duralde

[1:03:39] Oh, sure.

[1:03:39] Yeah.

[1:03:40] Well, yeah, definitely Corpses, Fools and Monsters and, and the, the, the Sleepaway Camp book by the Colangelos.

[1:03:46] Also, Travell Anderson, a former Max Fun host, has a book called We See Each Other about trans representation in film.

[1:03:56] That was very helpful to me as I was writing Hollywood Pride, pointed out several folks that, you know, like artists that I didn't know about and characters on, on screen that I didn't know about.

[1:04:07] As far as recent movies, a queer movie of recent vintage, I think it's on Canopy, that I've been really trying to press onto people because I feel like it got generally overlooked in its release.

[1:04:18] It's an Italian movie called Le Mensita, and it stars Penelope Cruz as the mother of a trans son.

[1:04:26] But it's Italy in the early 70s, and nobody understands what is going on with this quote-unquote girl, you know, and they don't understand his behavior.

[1:04:37] But the kid has this very rich fantasy life of his own involving, you know, what his future is going to be like or how he can exist in the world as a boy, as the boy that he understands himself to be.

[1:04:50] And so it's got these really big, fun, like, kind of musical numbers that are fantasy sequences.

[1:04:55] But there's also this really cool thing where there's this encampment of people living in the woods across the street from their high-rise apartment.

[1:05:02] And he goes there and hangs out and just presents himself as a boy, and that's how they welcome him.

[1:05:09] And he gets to sort of live this separate existence where he just gets to be a boy and nobody asks him questions about it.

[1:05:15] So that's a film that I really love that I would love for more people to see.

[1:05:19] So, yeah, go look for Le Mensita.

[1:05:22] Le Mensita.

Elliott Kalan

[1:05:23] Well, Dan, do you have any other – I mean, you're kind of the expert on this stuff, though.

[1:05:28] So, Dan, do you have any other thoughts about queer representation in film or, you know, what the experience of it?

Dan McCoy

[1:05:34] I mean, I was going to talk about seeing Cruising for the first time last year.

[1:05:38] Oh, wow.

[1:05:39] But I feel like the moment's passed, so we can just wrap things up.

Stuart Wellington

[1:05:43] I want to talk about my favorite movie of the year so far, Pillion.

[1:05:47] Woo!

[1:05:48] Okay.

[1:05:49] Well, maybe not my – but it's up there.

[1:05:52] It's up there.

[1:05:53] Yeah, yeah.

[1:05:53] Your favorite was The Mandalorian and Grogu.

[1:05:55] Yeah, yeah.

[1:05:56] But as somebody who's not in that community, I found it to be really affecting in part because of the way that it presents, like, kink.

[1:06:04] And that the, like, I guess, BDSM or leather culture in such a, like, plain format, like –

[1:06:11] Yep.

[1:06:12] And they don't seem to make a joke out of it.

[1:06:14] But I don't know.

[1:06:15] How do you feel about it, Alonzo?

Alonso Duralde

[1:06:16] I liked it a lot.

[1:06:18] I actually think it would be a really good double feature with Baby Girl, the recent Nicole Kidman movie.

[1:06:23] Because I kind of feel like they're both sort of coming out movies for kinksters.

[1:06:27] You know, they're about people who are able to sort of understand this is what I want and this is what I like and this is what I respond to.

[1:06:36] And this is what I don't want.

[1:06:37] You know, and so it's about people understanding themselves, declaring that to the world, and also setting the boundaries of what that is going to be for themselves.

[1:06:47] And they're tonally and stylistically different films, but I think they're both really effective at that.

Stuart Wellington

[1:06:52] And they're – but they're both – like, the drama comes from them trying to understand where those boundaries are and, like, figuring that out.

[1:07:00] They're not meant to be, what, like, paragons of this lifestyle.

[1:07:05] This is simply people learning something, which I found pretty exciting.

Alonso Duralde

[1:07:07] Yeah, they're figuring it out, and they're figuring out how do I accommodate this into the life I already have, whether it's with, you know, the husband and children I have and my position as a CEO or just –

[1:07:19] Tony B, yeah.

[1:07:20] Life with my parents or, you know, how my day-to-day existence, like, how does this all fit in – how does this all fit together?

[1:07:26] Yeah.

Elliott Kalan

[1:07:26] You're saying it's a step forward from in most older movies, it would be a joke about someone walks into the wrong room.

[1:07:33] Yes.

[1:07:33] There's someone just kind of swinging a short whip with a biker cap on, and that's the – and you just know –

[1:07:38] That person, Dan Aykroyd.

[1:07:40] Yeah.

Alonso Duralde

[1:07:42] I have not listened to your Exit to Eden episode yet, but I have to – I got to get into that one.

Elliott Kalan

[1:07:46] That is a – that is – what's funny about that is that its portrayal of key communities is, like, the least of the problems in the movie.

Dan McCoy

[1:07:56] Although, I mean, like –

[1:07:57] Jewel smuggling or whatever.

Alonso Duralde

[1:07:58] Gary Marshall spent a lot of time in dungeons doing research on that.

[1:08:01] Sure.

Dan McCoy

[1:08:01] It's – the funny thing about that movie is, like, the problem is not that what it is showing is offensive.

[1:08:06] The problem is that what they're showing as kink is so tame.

[1:08:10] It's so funny.

Elliott Kalan

[1:08:11] Why does it even go to an island for this?

[1:08:13] They're like, let's look at some – there's the showroom sequence.

[1:08:16] They're going through different kinky situations.

[1:08:18] You can do it, and they're like, love in an elevator.

[1:08:20] Ooh.

[1:08:21] Ooh.

[1:08:21] We're like, love with a stranger.

[1:08:22] Living it up while I'm going down?

[1:08:26] It's just like, oh, okay.

[1:08:27] Well, this is the most – this is the most, like, you know, 2% milk, 1% milk version of it.

Dan McCoy

[1:08:35] I'm going to sit on you with my bare bottom.

Alonso Duralde

[1:08:39] I mean, yeah.

[1:08:40] I am not part of the BDSM community, but even I could tell that the Fifty Shades movies were some bullshit, you know?

Elliott Kalan

[1:08:47] Yeah.

[1:08:47] I mean, the most real moment in any of the Fifty Shades movies is the moment where Dakota Johnson is in the middle of getting dressed, and they have an argument.

[1:08:53] And I was like, this feels real.

[1:08:54] This is the kind of thing that happens.

[1:08:58] Human behavior.

[1:08:59] Yes, a human.

[1:08:59] Sometimes you have an argument in the middle of getting dressed, but there's nothing sexy about it, you know?

[1:09:05] Elliot, do you have a recommendation?

[1:09:07] I should have prepared one considering I asked the question.

[1:09:10] I don't really.

[1:09:11] I'm going to think about one.

[1:09:11] That's going to be my homework assignment.

[1:09:13] Okay.

[1:09:13] Go think about what you've done.

[1:09:14] I've been so deep – yeah, exactly.

[1:09:16] I've been so deep in Czech comedies lately that I haven't been going outside of that world too much.

Alonso Duralde

[1:09:21] That's a two-circle Venn diagram, I'm pretty sure.

[1:09:25] Yeah, I think so.

[1:09:27] But what was Milos Forman, one of his first American movies was like –

[1:09:31] Taking Off?

[1:09:32] Taking Off, yeah.

[1:09:33] I don't know if there's anybody queer in that.

[1:09:34] I haven't seen it.

Elliott Kalan

[1:09:35] I don't know that there is.

[1:09:37] I mean, Taking Off is a great movie at the very least about people trying to understand other people, you know?

[1:09:43] Yeah.

Elliott Kalan

[1:09:43] So those parents are looking for their daughter and their daughter is in kind of like youth culture.

[1:09:47] But I don't remember there being anyone queer in it.

[1:09:51] But I'll watch it again.

[1:09:53] It's a good movie.

[1:09:55] And I'm sure that now that I think about it, the movies I've been watching, I'm sure probably have gay jokes in them that I just didn't notice because, you know, I'm not sure.

Alonso Duralde

[1:10:02] Yeah, I mean the thing about like those early – like the late 60s, early 70s, like the code was gone.

[1:10:07] You could suddenly do characters like that.

[1:10:10] But since most of those movies were being made by like straight dudes, it was like, well, it's either going to be comic relief or a killer, you know?

[1:10:18] But look at how progressive we are by having this, you know, this homo inclusion, you know?

Elliott Kalan

[1:10:24] What?

[1:10:25] We put you in the movie.

[1:10:26] You're the bad guy or we laugh at you.

[1:10:28] We acknowledge your existence.

[1:10:30] What do you want?

[1:10:31] What else could we do?

[1:10:32] Come on.

[1:10:33] Could I be the star of the movie?

[1:10:35] Of a movie?

[1:10:38] I'll have to think of something.

[1:10:40] I'll have to – well, I'll have to expand what I've been watching because it's – like the listeners of the past few episodes of the show, they're like, let Elliot watch some other stuff.

[1:10:49] So you stop recommending just Czech comedies from the same director over and over again.

[1:10:55] Well, this has been a really fun and very – I think – what an eye-opening conversation.

[1:11:03] I feel like we're all going to walk away.

[1:11:05] We've all really learned something today.

[1:11:07] Alonso, it's always such a joy to have you on the show.

[1:11:10] We'll have to have you back again real soon.

[1:11:13] But thank you for –

[1:11:14] I have to plug his book one last time.

[1:11:15] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Alonso Duralde

[1:11:16] Oh, please.

[1:11:16] Yes, my book, Hollywood Pride, that I wrote for Running Press and Turner Classic Movies.

[1:11:20] It's available everywhere.

[1:11:21] It is a book book, an e-book, and an audio book.

[1:11:24] So look for them where you find those things.

[1:11:27] Ask your library to snag a copy if they haven't already.

[1:11:30] And it's got tons and tons of ideas of films that you might want to check out.

[1:11:34] But always a pleasure to be here, guys.

[1:11:35] I'm thrilled when you had me back.

[1:11:37] And this was a great chat.

Stuart Wellington

[1:11:39] Who reads the audio book?

[1:11:41] Me.

[1:11:42] Oh.

[1:11:43] I tried to get Morgan Freeman and he wouldn't return my cards.

Elliott Kalan

[1:11:50] No, I would so much rather hear you read it, Alonso, than anybody else.

[1:11:53] Oh, stop.

[1:11:54] Yeah.

[1:11:55] But thank you so much, everybody, for listening.

[1:11:57] This has been the Flophouse Podcast, a mini episode.

[1:12:01] We'll be back next week with a movie episode.

[1:12:04] But it won't be as interesting.

[1:12:06] But it'll probably be dumber.

[1:12:06] Wow.

[1:12:07] It'll be dumber.

[1:12:07] It'll be dumber, probably.

Dan McCoy

[1:12:09] Look, we can praise this episode without burying another.

Elliott Kalan

[1:12:11] Yeah, come on.

[1:12:12] I don't know how to do that.

[1:12:13] It's the way I was raised.

[1:12:14] We are a member of the MaxFun Network.

[1:12:16] There are lots of great MaxFun podcasts.

[1:12:18] Maximum Film is a MaxFun podcast.

[1:12:20] Yes, it is.

[1:12:21] And where you can hear more of our friend, Alonso.

[1:12:24] Our show is produced by Alex Smith.

[1:12:26] You may know him better as Howell Doughty.

[1:12:29] And if you don't know him as Howell Doughty, take a look.

[1:12:31] Listen to his music.

[1:12:32] Listen to his podcast.

[1:12:33] He's hilarious.

[1:12:34] He's a great guy.

[1:12:34] He does great work for us.

[1:12:35] And he does great work on his own.

[1:12:37] Otherwise, if you happen to find yourself in a situation where you could leave a positive

[1:12:43] review for us on the podcast listener of your choice, why not do so?

[1:12:47] Why not take advantage of that?

[1:12:48] Five stars.

[1:12:49] Why not be generous?

[1:12:50] Give us five stars.

[1:12:51] Yeah.

[1:12:51] If six is an option, give us six.

[1:12:52] Frill yourself.

[1:12:53] Why be stingy with stars?

[1:12:55] Come on.

[1:12:55] We have such a good time.

[1:12:56] We're saving them up.

[1:12:57] You can't take them with you.

[1:12:59] There's an infinite supply.

[1:13:01] That's true.

[1:13:02] Look into the sky.

[1:13:03] It's filled with them.

[1:13:04] Just grab five and slam around your computer.

[1:13:07] Yeah.

[1:13:07] Be like the kid in that Italo Calvino story that Pixar made a short out of and just pluck

[1:13:11] some stars out and, you know, bring them home with you.

[1:13:14] Everyone, is there anything else I've forgotten, Dan?

[1:13:16] No, you did.

[1:13:17] Great.

[1:13:18] Okay.

[1:13:18] So thank you so much for listening.

[1:13:19] Again, we'll be back next week.

[1:13:20] And I guess I'll end with my normal catchphrase that I end every episode with.

[1:13:25] Keep flopping it up, floppos.

[1:13:28] Oh, man.

[1:13:29] Classic.

[1:13:30] And I've been Stuart Wellington.

[1:13:32] And I've been Dan McCoy.

[1:13:33] And we've been joined by Alonzo Duralde.

[1:13:35] Thank you.

FH Mini 153 - Pride

Transcript

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