Dreamcatcher, with Evan Dorkin

Stuart Wellington

[0:00] On this episode, we discuss Dreamcatcher.

[0:03] Well, fuck me, Freddy, if you don't take a bunch of Stephen King ideas and put them in a blender.

Elliott Kalan

[0:09] Wow, it's like you stepped right out of the stories, too.

[0:11] Yeah.

[0:30] Hey, everyone, and welcome to The Flophouse.

Dan McCoy

[0:35] I'm Dan McCoy.

[0:36] Hey there, Dan McCoy.

[0:37] I'm Stuart Wellington.

Elliott Kalan

[0:39] I'm also on The Flophouse.

[0:40] I'm the third co-host, and my name is Elliot Kalin.

[0:43] And before we get started, I want to introduce, we have a guest today.

[0:46] I'm very excited to welcome today's guest.

[0:48] He is a comic book writer.

[0:49] He's a comic book artist.

[0:50] He's had an enormous impact on the three of us, myself especially.

[0:53] Among the many things he's done, he's the creator of the beloved character's Milk and Cheese.

[0:57] He's co-creator of the series Beasts of Burden.

[0:59] He's the writer of one of my all-time favorite comics, World's Funnest, the Batmite Mr. Mix-Up Team-Up comic.

[1:06] Or I guess they're fighting each other.

[1:08] And he's done a ton of work in animation.

[1:10] He co-hosts the horror movie podcast Tear Them Apart.

[1:12] And he just released an enormous book called Nerd Inferno, The Essential Evan Dorkin,

[1:17] which collects seemingly all of his solo humor comics,

[1:21] which makes it automatically the funniest book you will read this year, if not longer.

[1:26] So please join us in welcoming one of the all-time greats of comic book humorists, Evan Dorkin.

[1:30] Evan, thank you so much for watching this piece of shit.

Evan Dorkin

[1:33] Thanks for having me, and I'm sorry that I picked this fucking movie.

[1:39] I really, really am sorry.

[1:42] I had already seen it, so obviously, you know, and it's just, it's a life-sucking.

[1:50] You know, if you hate Hollywood, this will be right up your alley.

Stuart Wellington

[1:53] It's not going to change your opinion of Hollywood.

[1:54] Absolutely not.

[1:56] To pull back the curtain, Evan gave a list of a couple movies to watch,

[1:59] and when I saw Dreamcatcher on that list, I'm like, we're doing that fucking thing.

[2:03] This movie's crazy.

[2:05] So really, we should be blaming Stuart.

Evan Dorkin

[2:07] I'll be the little devil.

[2:09] Yeah.

[2:09] The problem is, I haven't seen a ton of movies made after the year 2000,

[2:14] because the second Matrix film kind of just murdered me.

[2:18] At that point?

[2:19] I know, I honestly did.

[2:21] I stopped going to see movies in the theater.

[2:23] Now they peaked with the Matrix relapse.

[2:25] Part of that is living on Staten Island, because going to the movies in Staten Island is, you know,

[2:33] it's like making, it's like paying money to be kicked in the balls.

[2:36] Do you ever go to the Alamo out there?

[2:38] No, I haven't.

[2:39] I only, I walked in there just to see the Hong Kong kung fu posters and props.

[2:45] But I haven't actually gone to a movie there, because I have no life.

[2:48] Okay.

Dan McCoy

[2:49] Well, that is certainly the time, now that they've abandoned their no phone policy.

[2:53] Are you serious?

[2:54] Really?

[2:55] Wow.

Evan Dorkin

[2:55] Yeah, because in case you want to hear Big Pete talk to Tina, you know, well, Dreamcatcher.

Stuart Wellington

[3:03] I was so disappointed when we went there, because they're known for having food,

[3:07] that they didn't have like Staten Island food.

[3:08] Like I couldn't get like fucking Arancini or some shit with my, when I'm watching a movie.

Evan Dorkin

[3:12] You had some good mozzarella and you get punched in the face, just like you were in the 7-Eleven parking lot.

[3:19] Or Cachinos or whatever.

[3:21] Yeah, it's, I'm surprised that we're not just showing Ronnie Dangerfield films.

[3:25] That place.

[3:26] You know, or the God, nothing but the good.

[3:30] I saw goodfellas out here on Staten Island.

[3:33] And the place was filled with low-level made men.

[3:37] Well, not made men.

[3:38] Oh, wow.

[3:38] Low-level mobsters and their Asian girlfriends.

[3:40] And my friend and I are watching this thing.

[3:43] And it was a comedy to them.

[3:45] Anytime somebody got kicked, punched, shot, they were just laughing their asses off.

[3:49] So, yeah, the Alamo should be a pisser.

[3:53] I wanted to see some, there was a Godzilla film, but I missed it.

[3:56] You know, what can you do?

[3:57] They'll probably play it again.

[3:58] It took them like four years.

[4:00] Yeah, because they, yeah.

[4:01] They probably never returned the film.

Elliott Kalan

[4:04] Before we get into Dreamcatcher, Evan, is there anything you want to say about Nerd Inferno, your book, which has not, which comes out in a couple days as we're recording this.

[4:14] When this is out, this episode, the book will be out.

Evan Dorkin

[4:16] It'll be out April 28th, so I don't know when this is going to air.

[4:20] But, yeah, it's a collection of almost all my solo, you know, purported humor comics.

[4:29] Dork, which was a catch-all for a lot of my stuff that I did for magazines and punk zines and fanzines and things like that.

[4:36] And a couple of things from Free All Weeklies that used to be a thing, you know.

[4:44] And the milk and cheese is just, you know, it's just milk and cheese.

[4:48] There's really nothing else.

Elliott Kalan

[4:49] There's two, you know, the card of milk and a slice of cheese and they beat people up, yeah.

Evan Dorkin

[4:54] Yeah, that's pretty much the whole deal.

[4:56] Who I'm bringing back because there's a deadline has come back.

[4:59] The magazine, the British magazine I used to do the strip for, and they're back as a Kickstarter thing.

[5:06] So I told them that I would do some new milk and cheese stuff because, you know, it's so hard to find subjects to be angry about these days.

[5:13] But I'll try.

Elliott Kalan

[5:15] It's a challenge.

[5:16] It's a challenge.

[5:17] And does it have all the Eltingville Club comics in the Eltingville?

[5:20] Well, that's the main thing.

Evan Dorkin

[5:21] It has the entire Eltingville Club, which is about, you know, toxic nerd behavior, toxic fan behavior before they started calling it.

[5:31] Yeah, before that disappeared.

[5:33] When it was just called fan behavior.

[5:35] You know, in this idyllic, again, in this, I quit right before, you know, things got, you know, idyllic in this, in the world of fandom online.

[5:43] But that, yeah, all those things, they're all out of print from Dark Horse.

[5:46] There's been a weird revival of the Eltingville Club through TikTok culture and things like that, which spilled into my social media about three years ago.

[6:04] And the book, there's these memes based on the pilot, the adult swim pilot that failed but aired.

[6:13] And there's a Spanish dub of it, which, and there's just a resurging underground Eltingville fandom of younger readers in 2026, like about 10 years after the book came out and flopped.

[6:28] It didn't sell out until about two years ago.

[6:30] And the demand for a reprint, my editor, Daniel Shaban, said, well, you know, we had done the Beast of Burden omnibus.

[6:39] So he said, well, let's throw all three books in.

[6:43] And it turned out to be a really nice idea at the right time.

[6:46] So it seems to be there's some demand for it from the little I can gather.

[6:52] It's going to do okay.

Elliott Kalan

[6:54] I mean, that's great.

[6:55] I mean, I was super excited when I heard about it.

[6:57] I pre-ordered my copy despite owning, I think, most of the material already.

[7:01] I'm hearing that from someone.

Evan Dorkin

[7:02] I appreciate that.

[7:03] Yes, I do appreciate that.

[7:04] The family appreciates that.

[7:06] But I'm excited.

Elliott Kalan

[7:08] And I'll also mention that you're also on Patreon.

[7:10] And I'm a Patreon supporter of yours.

[7:13] And if you ever wanted to have a Patreon membership where every now and then you just get suddenly a surprise that there's a horror illustration in your email.

[7:23] Yeah.

[7:24] You can expect.

[7:24] It's really great.

Evan Dorkin

[7:25] I treat the Patreon like a job.

[7:27] I mean, I try to always update at least once a week, if not more.

[7:35] And I've got about 1,000 posts up there.

[7:38] It's a buck a month for most of them.

[7:40] And it's been the spine.

[7:42] Freelancing has been really bizarre, especially since COVID.

[7:46] And, you know, we had a cancer situation in the household.

[7:50] So that kind of clipped our wings for a couple of years.

[7:54] And we weren't able to get as much work done as we used to.

[7:59] So, you know, Sarah suggested doing the Patreon.

[8:02] It's basically been a lifeline.

[8:04] But, yeah, I post scripts.

[8:07] I put new artwork up, new comics when I can.

[8:10] And I talk about all the failures of my career because I don't know how to teach by doing.

[8:15] I know how to teach by failing.

[8:17] You know, it's like I don't have the – I just don't feel it in me to say here's how you should draw and here's how you should write.

[8:23] But I can't say here's where I fucked up.

[8:26] Here's where I blew my second pilot because I was a nut job.

[8:29] Go to therapy, man.

[8:30] Things like that.

[8:31] I mean, to me, it's more invaluable to learn about how you get screwed over in the comics industry or the animation industry or not.

[8:39] I mean, I was actually treated pretty well in animation, to be honest.

[8:41] I fell into – between Space Ghost and Yo Gabba Gabba, I mean, those were good gigs where they actually respected the writers and let you do what you wanted, things like that.

[8:52] But anyway, yeah.

[8:53] That doesn't happen much anymore.

Dan McCoy

[8:54] I think it's been outlawed.

Evan Dorkin

[8:56] I think it's actually been – I think the Supreme Court actually nullified that.

[9:01] You know?

Dan McCoy

[9:02] You being on our show is at least a public service announcement for me who didn't realize that Nerd Inferno was coming out.

[9:12] And as an avid dork reader, now I'm like, oh, all of it?

[9:15] Please.

[9:16] Yeah, all of it.

[9:17] Yeah.

[9:17] Plus extras.

Evan Dorkin

[9:18] Plus, you know, all the covers and things like that.

[9:19] The House of Fun one shot is in there.

[9:21] And I'm still doing – basically, dork exists as stuff I put on my Patreon.

[9:27] And I have enough material that I will eventually put a dork 12 out and keep it going here and there.

[9:32] But, you know, I'm just – I'm in my 60s.

[9:36] I'm just ready to die.

[9:38] But you've got to put dork number 12 out first.

[9:40] Yeah, yeah.

[9:41] I think the readiness to die –

[9:42] Somebody can assemble it.

[9:42] I don't know how to do the computer stuff.

[9:44] I don't know how to actually put an issue.

[9:45] Like I couldn't make an eight-page fanzine if you put a gun to my head.

Elliott Kalan

[9:49] But the readiness to die may be more influenced by the fact that you had to watch Dreamcatcher for today's episode than anything else.

Evan Dorkin

[9:55] Yeah, we've been feeding around the bush.

[9:58] Dreamcatcher is much more – because it's kind of destroyed my will to live and create.

Dan McCoy

[10:05] Well, I apologize that we're going to probably –

[10:08] We haven't even started it.

[10:09] We're going to go through in reasonable detail.

[10:12] Excellent.

[10:13] Scrape open all those wounds.

Evan Dorkin

[10:16] I'm very glad to have you guys steward me through this because I definitely –

[10:22] And steward you.

Stuart Wellington

[10:22] Yeah, yeah.

[10:23] Well, I'm named after the steward of Dreamcatcher.

[10:27] With a D.

[10:28] With a D.

Evan Dorkin

[10:29] I didn't mean to invoke – but yes.

[10:32] Because I don't know who a lot of the people involved with this were.

[10:36] I mean I know who the old people who failed miserably are.

[10:39] But I don't know the relatively young actors of the time.

[10:43] I did look –

[10:44] They're all very old now.

[10:45] Yes.

[10:45] Oh, that's funny.

Elliott Kalan

[10:46] What's amazing to see, usually –

[10:48] I will say I have osteoporosis.

[10:51] Usually you watch an older movie and there's actors in it who become bigger stars and you're like, oh, wow.

[10:56] Look at how handsome they were then.

[10:58] And this is – Timothy Oliphant looks –

[11:00] He looks terrible.

[11:01] I'm not terrible.

[11:02] Compared to how handsome he got later.

[11:04] He doesn't look –

[11:04] He doesn't look as handsome as his –

[11:05] Which one is Timothy Oliphant?

[11:07] He's the car salesman who –

Evan Dorkin

[11:09] Holy good night.

[11:10] What was his problem?

[11:12] Well, right?

[11:13] Didn't he look absolutely in fear half the time?

Stuart Wellington

[11:16] Yeah.

[11:17] He grew into his face and he got a better haircut at some point.

[11:19] He really did.

[11:20] He got this kind of Marco –

[11:21] Started wearing cowboy hands.

[11:23] Terrified Marco Rubio face.

Evan Dorkin

[11:24] Yeah.

[11:25] No, it's true.

[11:26] It's very plastic, very sculpted, very weird.

[11:28] Yeah, but then he went on to become the handsomest cowboy on TV.

Elliott Kalan

[11:31] Is he famous from something?

[11:32] Well, he was a star of Justified.

[11:34] And Deadwood.

[11:35] And Deadwood.

[11:36] Yeah.

[11:36] Deadwood I've heard of.

Evan Dorkin

[11:37] Deadwood, that's where the cowboys curse, right?

[11:40] Yeah, they curse a lot, yeah.

[11:42] Home of the Cursing Cowboy.

Dan McCoy

[11:45] Charismatic and sexy later on.

[11:47] It's very funny to see him here.

[11:48] Well, everybody in this movie is stunted.

[11:52] Yeah.

Elliott Kalan

[11:53] They're all – I mean, but you have to understand because it's not – it's directed by a new guy by the name of Lawrence Kasdan.

Evan Dorkin

[12:00] Yeah.

[12:00] A guy who's never worked with an ensemble of actors before or written dialogue for them to say.

Stuart Wellington

[12:08] Well, I feel like the dialogue is the work of one Mr. Stephen King.

Elliott Kalan

[12:13] It is the Stephen King-iest of movies and the dialogue especially that there's so much made-up slang that nobody has ever used.

[12:22] Has he never had friends?

Evan Dorkin

[12:25] Did he always like imagine his friends made up nicknames?

[12:28] I actually said, has he ever socialized?

[12:31] Yeah.

[12:32] And the thing is, I'm a – you know, the thing is to review this movie is really – you got to talk about Stephen King.

[12:38] You can't help it.

[12:39] Yeah.

[12:39] I mean, he looms so large over Hollywood and over books.

[12:43] But I'm a fan of Stephen King as a person.

[12:47] He seems like a good guy who wants the world to be better.

[12:51] I grew up as a big Stephen King fan.

[12:53] I read everything as it came out.

[12:55] I mean –

[12:56] What was your cutoff?

Stuart Wellington

[12:57] What was the last one?

[12:58] Because I feel like a lot of people read everything and then –

[13:01] Yes.

[13:01] There's a last one.

[13:02] Okay.

Evan Dorkin

[13:02] Mine was Tommyknockers.

Dan McCoy

[13:04] Okay.

[13:05] Mine was the one later.

[13:06] I could not finish that one and I love Stephen King.

Evan Dorkin

[13:09] The engines on my plane were already burning because thinner – which was just a pulp goof.

[13:16] But it was just – I was just like, oh, wait a second.

[13:19] I see a dent in the armor.

[13:20] This isn't great.

[13:22] And it – I fucking wanted to throw it across the –

[13:26] Hmm.

[13:27] When they got to – especially when they got to that scene.

[13:29] Yes.

Stuart Wellington

[13:30] When they get to the end, yeah.

[13:31] You know.

[13:32] And Tommyknockers.

[13:34] Cocaine makes you write crazy endings.

Elliott Kalan

[13:35] I mean to be fair to Stephen King, yeah, he doesn't like Tommyknockers either.

[13:39] And he's talked about how I don't remember writing that book.

[13:42] What happens in that book?

Evan Dorkin

[13:43] Can you imagine not remembering –

[13:45] No.

[13:46] Writing an entire book?

[13:48] I can imagine not remembering –

[13:49] Well, not for him.

[13:50] That's not a short book.

Elliott Kalan

[13:51] One crazy night where you're like – it's a crazy night.

[13:53] You're like, what happened then?

[13:54] I don't remember.

[13:54] But to not remember writing an entire book, I don't know.

Evan Dorkin

[13:57] I wrote one comic book script when I was breaking into the industry high on cocaine, okay?

[14:03] And I thought it was brilliant.

[14:05] I woke up the next day and I went, do over.

[14:08] What?

[14:08] I could not understand.

[14:09] The Superman wouldn't do all those things?

[14:11] I – it was barely English.

[14:13] It was just – it was Esperanto for 24 pages of nonsense.

[14:18] I mean –

[14:19] But I didn't have people who would buy it, so I had to rip it up and do it over again, unlike Stephen King.

Dan McCoy

[14:24] But that kind of cooler head prevailing – like the funny thing to me is that like, yeah, Stephen King writes this like weird gibberish slang that no one's ever seen or heard.

[14:34] And I understand keeping some of the unworkable plot elements maybe because you're like, oh, that's the plot.

[14:40] I got to keep the plot of the best-selling book or whatever.

[14:43] But why William Goldman when typing this up didn't be like, nope, when he was writing some of that stuff?

Evan Dorkin

[14:49] Apparently – that's what's fascinating about this film is that you've got Lawrence Kasdan.

[14:52] Whether you're a fan or not, you've got Lawrence Kasdan and William Goldman, two people renowned for writing scripts.

[14:59] Yeah.

[15:00] And they turned this thing out, which – and the thing is he wrote – King wrote this in 2021.

[15:06] So it's not –

[15:08] Turn around.

[15:09] And he did write it after getting hit by a car and he was on Oxy.

[15:12] Mm-hmm.

[15:12] So it's back to his – it's back to his drug days in a lot of ways.

[15:16] It feels like Tommyknockers.

[15:17] I haven't read Dreamcatcher and I'm not going to.

[15:19] I've actually never read the book of it.

Stuart Wellington

[15:21] I'm kind of tempted after rewatching it.

[15:23] I am too because –

[15:23] It feels so weird.

[15:24] There's got to be a lot more fuckaroo and fuckery in there.

[15:27] There's got to be.

Elliott Kalan

[15:28] I keep saying to myself that –

[15:29] Fighting big ones.

[15:30] At some point, I'm going to read through all of his books, the ones I've read before and the ones I never read.

[15:35] Right.

[15:35] But I know – and like am I really going to go all the way to the last 25 years or so of them?

[15:40] I'm not so sure.

[15:41] But I'm curious to read Dreamcatcher because it feels like one where if it didn't have Stephen King's name on it, you wouldn't try to make it into a movie.

[15:49] No.

Dan McCoy

[15:49] But also like I know that it's still bad material.

[15:54] Like it still probably doesn't work that well.

[15:56] But I can imagine it working better in a book where your brain is creating some of this stuff.

Evan Dorkin

[16:02] You can tell from the movie that there's an interior monologue going on in at least one of the major characters that's super important to the book.

[16:10] And they literalize it.

[16:11] I mean, well, I guess – and it's just awful.

[16:14] But they do this again.

[16:15] He brings back the inner monologue thing with the physicality of creating a literal headspace in the movie, which works very poorly.

[16:26] And they bring that back in Doctor Sleep, which is one of the few other adaptations I've seen.

[16:32] But Doctor Sleep feels like this – Doctor Sleep has a lot of the same problems any King adaptation has, especially when it's bloated and you don't want to touch it because you'll piss the fans off.

Stuart Wellington

[16:42] But it feels like there's a surer hand – I mean, Doctor Sleep feels like a movie.

[16:46] I feel like Mike Flanagan has a better understanding of Stephen King.

Evan Dorkin

[16:49] I didn't love Doctor Sleep because there's things in it that I feel are the King's things that I just did not care for, the superhero aspects of flying and craziness and whatnot.

[16:59] And also – but the Stephen King villains, they talk like they're from the 60s or 50s.

[17:05] Yeah.

[17:05] They just don't work for me, the woman with the hat and all that.

[17:09] I did not –

[17:10] Isn't that her name?

[17:11] It's the hat, right?

[17:12] Yeah.

[17:12] It's just –

[17:13] It's Goonie.

[17:15] It's just Goonie.

[17:16] You wouldn't want your DM to be fucking turning these concepts into your game.

[17:21] It feels like Stephen King –

[17:22] You're like, come on, Brad.

[17:23] This is bullshit.

[17:24] Come on, Pat.

Elliott Kalan

[17:25] I feel like about Stephen King the same way that I felt about kind of later John Carpenter where it was like he had – it felt like he needed to get things out of his system and then someone else had to be like, well, no one needs to see this.

[17:37] Let's just take it away and not publish that one or not make that –

Stuart Wellington

[17:39] Time to just go play video games and watch basketball.

Evan Dorkin

[17:42] That's what's great.

[17:42] Yeah.

[17:42] Carpenter is just like, you know, I don't need to keep doing this.

[17:45] I'm just going to get high and, yeah, play.

[17:47] And please send me checks for adapting my stuff.

[17:50] God bless them.

[17:51] Yeah.

[17:52] But, you know, I mean still, you know, I could have said Ghosts of Mars.

[17:55] We could be talking about Ghosts of Mars right now.

[17:57] We could have been.

[17:58] That's true.

Stuart Wellington

[17:58] But we're talking about Dreamcatcher.

[17:59] Should we start the plot of the movie?

Dan McCoy

[18:02] We've jittered around the margins enough.

[18:06] It's funny that you say –

[18:06] And we poked it, but now we have to stab it.

[18:08] Yeah.

[18:09] It's funny that you say that you don't recognize these people because my first note is like I'm going to use actor names for the most part because they're recognizable.

Evan Dorkin

[18:17] It's really hard to remember who they are unless they have a terrible nickname.

[18:20] Jonesy Beaver.

[18:22] Eve and Jonesy is all I can find.

[18:24] Done it.

[18:25] Done it.

Dan McCoy

[18:25] So, yeah.

[18:26] Thomas Jane is one of the ones not with a nickname that makes them more interesting.

[18:32] So I'm just going to call him Thomas Jane.

[18:34] He's a therapist.

[18:36] I'm not going to get into too much detail because I think it would not serve us well.

[18:41] Go for it.

[18:42] I don't have plans.

[18:44] Well, we meet him.

[18:45] He is unethically using his psychic powers to look inside the brain of a patient.

[18:51] To a fat shaman.

[18:52] Yeah.

[18:53] That was just awful though.

Elliott Kalan

[18:55] I think he's a bad therapist.

[18:57] But the number of times I've been in therapy and I wish that my therapist could just look inside my head and see.

[19:02] Same here.

[19:02] So I didn't have to describe it.

[19:03] That would be great.

Evan Dorkin

[19:04] If it was funny.

[19:05] Also, you know, you save a lot of money.

[19:06] Yes.

Stuart Wellington

[19:07] It's just the one session.

[19:09] Yeah, exactly.

Evan Dorkin

[19:09] I mean, I'm going for six years now.

[19:11] I don't have insurance.

[19:12] I can just go in there and go, you know, yada, yada, yada.

[19:15] You hate yourself.

[19:16] You have to work on it.

[19:19] I'd be like, okay, great.

[19:20] I'm going to White Castle.

[19:21] Thanks for everything.

[19:24] Not only do they fat shame this, but because this is Stephen King, the guy collapses the bench.

[19:33] Collapses the couch he's sitting on, which is just.

[19:37] It's insulting.

Stuart Wellington

[19:38] I do also love that the movie does a very clever way to slip in that he went to Harvard.

[19:44] By showing his Harvard degree on the wall?

[19:46] Yes.

[19:47] Yeah.

[19:47] But they're like, we've got to make sure everybody knows he went to Harvard.

[19:50] He shoots it, does he not?

[19:51] He shoots it, yeah.

Dan McCoy

[19:52] Speaking of shooting, this mysterious therapist, psychic therapist, pulls out a gun.

[19:57] He's going to kill himself, but he's interrupted by a call from Damian Lewis, who's Jonesy.

[20:03] Now, here's something.

Elliott Kalan

[20:04] This is something that got to me a little bit.

[20:06] It was, he never, at no point was I like, yeah, there's inner turmoil in this guy that would lead him to potentially take his own life.

[20:12] Like, it seemed so.

[20:13] Or just meeting him.

[20:14] I mean, later on in the movie.

[20:16] Oh, yeah.

Dan McCoy

[20:17] I'm sure later on they'll fill in why all four guys are messed up.

[20:20] Yeah.

[20:21] Right?

[20:21] No, you're right.

[20:22] That does not pay off in any way now that I think about it.

[20:25] No, he doesn't.

[20:26] None of it.

[20:27] You don't know why anybody's got a problem.

Elliott Kalan

[20:29] No.

[20:29] Yeah.

[20:29] They all seem like they've been really hurt.

[20:31] It's almost like the movie, something happened in the backstory of the characters that we never see and we don't know about.

[20:37] Because when we do see their backstory, it's just them being psychic together, finding missing kids.

Evan Dorkin

[20:40] But you don't find out, you don't even have the trope of being psychic has fucked their lives up because it's too much noise in their heads.

[20:48] Yeah, yeah.

[20:49] You've got, you've got, the therapist is just suicidal.

[20:52] That's it.

[20:53] That's the character trait.

[20:54] You've got suicidal, toothpick.

[20:56] Yeah.

[20:57] That's what that, it should have been a nickname.

[20:59] It's a bee.

[21:00] Yeah.

Stuart Wellington

[21:01] Beavers eat toothpicks.

[21:03] Damien Lewis.

[21:04] Oh, I didn't think of that.

[21:05] Yeah.

Evan Dorkin

[21:06] That's more brilliant than most of the film.

Stuart Wellington

[21:09] Yeah.

[21:10] I changed my mind.

[21:10] It's a great movie.

[21:11] Fuck me, Freddy.

[21:12] It's right.

[21:13] Oh, shit.

[21:13] Don't.

[21:14] Don't.

[21:14] Because I'm afraid we're going to have to start saying these things in real life.

Evan Dorkin

[21:17] Yeah.

[21:18] These, these.

Elliott Kalan

[21:18] Later on when they're like, is this a fuckaroo?

[21:20] No, it's a fuckery.

[21:21] I'm like, come on.

[21:22] This is, please don't.

Stuart Wellington

[21:24] Same shit.

[21:25] Different day, guys.

Elliott Kalan

[21:26] SSDD.

[21:26] Unless you're going to give me like a David Lynch Dune glossary program to look at during

[21:33] the movie, you know.

[21:34] No, this movie.

[21:34] They just behave like it's a common term.

[21:35] Yeah, this movie does need like a clockwork orange.

Evan Dorkin

[21:38] You wonder if the book has a clockwork orange glossary in the back, you know.

[21:41] Red, red, crabby, fuckaroo, fuckaroo.

Dan McCoy

[21:46] Jonesy wants them to go up to the cabin for someone named Duditz.

[21:50] We'll learn that later on this is the way the character says his name, which is actually Dudley,

[21:55] I believe.

[21:56] But.

[21:57] Because Dudley Moore was going to play the part originally.

[21:59] But early in the movie, audiences can be forgiven for being like, what's a Duditz?

[22:05] Dudley Manlove.

[22:06] Dudley Manlove could have been in there.

[22:10] Jonesy's a teacher.

[22:11] He has an interaction with a student that shows he's also psychic.

[22:14] We get car dealer Timothy Oliphant.

[22:17] But he's the good kind of psychic.

[22:18] He's like, you cheated on the test, but you know what?

Elliott Kalan

[22:20] You're a good kid.

[22:21] You just, you're poor, so I feel bad.

[22:23] I feel simply for you.

Evan Dorkin

[22:24] Because they had to show his dirty, ripped up sneakers something like 17 times in that

[22:31] scene.

[22:32] They just kept putting insert shots of the, in case you didn't get it, he's poor.

Elliott Kalan

[22:36] And they're from the same bad part of Maine because in Stephen King stories, like 80% of the country's

[22:41] population lives in Maine, basically.

[22:43] Right.

[22:43] Yeah.

Dan McCoy

[22:45] We meet car dealer Timothy Oliphant.

[22:48] He tries to hit on a lady with his own psychic powers, but only creeps her out.

[22:52] Too creepy.

Elliott Kalan

[22:52] He's on for so long that he's using the psychic powers to help her find her keys.

[22:56] And he, and it's, I think what creeps her out is the hitting on at the end.

Dan McCoy

[23:00] Like.

[23:00] Well, yeah, yes.

[23:02] But like, I think that she's like spooked by the fact that he seemingly has psychic powers.

Evan Dorkin

[23:08] Except all I kept thinking though, is that if I met somebody who found my keys using psychic

[23:13] abilities, I'd be like, holy shit, I should maybe get to know this person.

[23:18] Yeah.

[23:18] I would think it was cool.

[23:19] I would think it was cool.

[23:21] She's terrified by it.

[23:22] I mean, he does come off as absolutely creepy.

Dan McCoy

[23:24] Yes.

[23:25] But.

[23:25] Which is wild because it's Timothy Oliphant, who we were talking about before we started taping,

[23:29] became a very handsome, charismatic.

Stuart Wellington

[23:31] I feel like he's been slimy, but this is the first time he's seemed creepy.

[23:36] Yeah.

Evan Dorkin

[23:37] But the scene comes off like you're supposed to feel that she's unnerved by his psychic ability.

[23:43] But I would think the entire audience is just like, you know.

[23:47] No, it's the way he's staring at her.

[23:49] He is creepy.

[23:50] He does have this.

[23:50] Asking her for clams.

[23:52] And asking her for clams, which is not a good first date.

[23:54] Slimy bullfrog stare at her.

[23:56] He seems very desperate.

[23:57] And I don't know if he's supposed to be.

[23:59] He just.

Dan McCoy

[24:01] I got one more.

[24:02] One more member of the crew.

[24:03] That's Jason Lee playing Beaver.

[24:05] And his personality is he's always got a toothpick.

[24:09] And he's an asshole because there has to be an asshole.

Elliott Kalan

[24:11] He's the one who's like the wisecracker.

[24:13] He's the wisecracking asshole.

Stuart Wellington

[24:14] And he's a Scientologist, right?

[24:16] Is he?

[24:17] Well, Jason Lee is.

Elliott Kalan

[24:18] Jason Lee is no longer part of Scientology.

[24:20] He doesn't want to talk about it.

[24:21] Okay.

[24:21] I'm very protective of him because he owns a store in my neighborhood.

[24:25] Okay.

[24:26] Really?

[24:26] Yeah.

[24:27] Okay.

[24:27] He made it through.

[24:28] Okay.

[24:29] Yes.

Evan Dorkin

[24:29] Elliot, if we pay you enough money, can you go in there and just yell Dreamcatcher and punch

[24:33] him in the face?

[24:34] No.

Elliott Kalan

[24:35] I mean, there have to be a pretty big amount of money.

[24:37] We'll talk about it afterwards.

Dan McCoy

[24:38] We'll talk about it.

[24:39] He's brought the enjoyment in other projects.

[24:42] Spalt bucks?

Elliott Kalan

[24:44] We'll talk.

[24:45] Yeah.

[24:45] I think we can come to terms we're all agreeable with.

[24:49] Fifteen bucks.

Evan Dorkin

[24:51] We can raise money.

[24:52] We can crowdfund this, I'm sure.

[24:54] He'll probably put in $5.

Dan McCoy

[24:57] What was the store selling?

Elliott Kalan

[24:59] It sells camera equipment.

[25:01] He's on the photography now.

[25:03] So, yeah.

[25:03] Oh, cool.

Dan McCoy

[25:05] Well, Jason Lee tells Damien Lewis over the phone to be careful.

[25:08] He's got some kind of bad premonition.

[25:10] And on his way home, sure enough, Jonesy walks right out into traffic.

[25:15] Now, I would like to take him off.

Stuart Wellington

[25:16] Yeah, he gets, what, meet Joe Blacked by those guys.

[25:19] It looks so funny.

[25:20] I thought he got killed by CGI at first.

[25:23] I thought, this is interesting.

[25:24] This is like.

Elliott Kalan

[25:25] There's a couple of open questions here about Damien Lewis' character.

[25:27] One, this is a weird performance.

[25:30] Even before he has a British alien in his head that's sitting over his body.

[25:34] It's already a weird performance.

[25:35] But also, they go out of their way to say that he is dead, basically.

[25:40] Like, you see from his point of view, they're like, there's nothing we can do.

[25:43] But then the next scene, he's just hobbling around with the other characters.

[25:46] And I was like.

[25:46] Actually, no support for that scene.

Dan McCoy

[25:49] They don't.

[25:49] Yeah.

[25:50] Well, in the ambulance, we get Duditz, our first viewing of Duditz as a bully.

[25:55] He's got some sort of mental disability, it seems.

[25:58] And he says, watch out for Mr. Gay.

[26:00] And then fade out.

[26:02] And we're like, did he die?

[26:03] But, like, I guess Duditz power brought him back to life.

[26:06] And this is 2003, this movie.

Elliott Kalan

[26:08] So, they could be warning people about gay people.

[26:11] It wasn't.

[26:12] These movies could still be on the wrong side of that thing.

Evan Dorkin

[26:14] Yeah.

[26:15] Well, it certainly comes up with Mr. Gay.

[26:17] I mean, what are you supposed to make of that, right?

[26:19] It's just Stephen King being creative.

Dan McCoy

[26:23] You know?

[26:25] That is like old Southern lady level of, like, damning someone by Stephen King.

[26:30] We say something nice.

Evan Dorkin

[26:32] But, I mean, you have a ghostly Down syndrome patient saying, beware of Mr. Gay.

[26:40] Yes.

[26:40] It's some of the worst.

[26:42] And Hollywood jumps up in their seats.

[26:45] We've got to do it.

Elliott Kalan

[26:46] We've got to make this movie.

[26:47] We've got to do this as it is.

[26:49] And, no, you've got to play it as it lies.

[26:51] And as we learn later, this is something that Duditz has known about since they were children,

[26:55] but has not thought fit to mention at any point.

Evan Dorkin

[26:58] But he had to wait until you get hit by cars to tell you.

Stuart Wellington

[27:03] It's all part of his grand scheme because he needs him to have been hit by cars.

[27:06] Because Duditz couldn't get a fucking notepad and a pen.

[27:08] No.

Dan McCoy

[27:09] We get a caption that says six months later, and this plays over shots of a dream catcher because that's the title of the movie.

Stuart Wellington

[27:16] That's where I pointed to the screen to tell my wife that's the dream catcher.

[27:20] I was very happy.

Elliott Kalan

[27:20] There's the meme of Leo DiCaprio pointing at the screen, except he's got a dream catcher for a head.

Dan McCoy

[27:25] I read a Wikipedia about the book that, at the end of it, I guess sort of explains why it's called Dream Catcher,

[27:32] and I've already forgotten why.

[27:34] Like, honestly, even in the book, it seems like that's a dumb idea.

[27:38] It doesn't really –

Evan Dorkin

[27:38] It's so forced on the film.

[27:42] But it's – King likes to bring in Native Americans or black culture to throw this patois of folk horror or some grounding for the bullshit.

[27:55] The dream catcher in this is that – god damn it.

[27:59] A dream catcher is supposed to catch – is a Native American that's supposed to –

[28:05] Catch all the bad dreams, right?

[28:06] Bad dreams, which is absolutely stupid in the context of this film.

Elliott Kalan

[28:10] Well, it's – and it points to like – I bet Stephen King could write a pretty great movie about like the collection of nightmares and something loose or something like that.

[28:20] That would be great.

[28:21] It's its own concept, and they don't use it, really.

[28:23] Instead, they have a big dream catcher in their house.

[28:25] They're like, yep, that's our dream catcher, all right.

[28:26] And then later they're like, to duditz, our dream catcher.

[28:29] I'm like, how?

[28:30] How?

[28:31] It doesn't make any sense.

[28:32] I don't understand.

Evan Dorkin

[28:32] There's some – the book is probably – I mean, the book is thick, and it's obviously got more time to delve into all this shit.

[28:40] But there's probably all this stuff because later on when we get into the alien stuff, they have a –

[28:46] Wait, there's alien stuff?

[28:48] Yeah, I hate to tell you.

[28:49] I hate to tell you, but that's where this is going.

[28:51] But the aliens do this like, you know, falsity thing.

[28:54] They have this lying ability of projecting illusions and speak and – they do this bullshit, and that's, I guess, the dream catcher.

[29:04] Oh.

Dan McCoy

[29:05] I looked up the end of the Wikipedia.

[29:07] It doesn't work.

[29:08] It doesn't work.

[29:10] So apparently in the novel, as it says here, it is revealed that Jonesy was immune to the alien fungus all along, and Mr. Gray was only able to take over his mind because he believed it could.

[29:21] The idea of being caught as in a dream catcher.

[29:24] I'm like, that's –

[29:25] Holy shit.

Stuart Wellington

[29:25] That's way dumber than I thought.

Dan McCoy

[29:27] That's really dumb.

Evan Dorkin

[29:27] That's idiotic.

[29:28] I'm sorry I said anything in the last five minutes about this.

[29:32] I feel like I'm not getting paid to work here.

[29:35] I mean –

Elliott Kalan

[29:36] Are you kidding me?

[29:36] I'm going to go take a look at – stenographer, can you read back what Evan was saying?

[29:40] No, I don't want to.

[29:41] Yes, I said Stephen King, master storyteller.

[29:43] It all comes together.

[29:44] It all makes sense.

[29:45] Yeah.

Stuart Wellington

[29:46] I'm sure with more of the analysis of develop, it explains it super clearly.

[29:49] I gave Dreamcatcher more credit than Dreamcatcher.

Evan Dorkin

[29:52] It's amazing because, you know, as writers and anybody listening, you know you go into a work situation or try to get a job, and you bust your fucking ass trying to make your plot, make your characters, make things make sense.

[30:05] And then you get, you know, Dreamcatcher.

[30:09] Yeah.

[30:10] You know you couldn't sell it in a million years on your own name.

[30:13] Absolutely not.

[30:14] Anyway, sorry.

Dan McCoy

[30:15] No, they've made it out to the cabin.

[30:17] All four guys are at the cabin.

[30:18] Six months later, Jonesy has recovered with a mysterious speed, and he says that when he was hit, it was because he saw Duditz gesturing to him from across the street.

[30:30] Now, we don't see this, right?

[30:31] And he walked into the street.

[30:31] We have not seen this previously.

Elliott Kalan

[30:33] Because I thought I had missed something, and he's like, oh, yeah, I saw Duditz there.

[30:36] I was like, I don't remember seeing Duditz.

[30:37] No, he's not in there.

Evan Dorkin

[30:38] It's a cheat.

[30:38] It's a real weird cheat because they know that their idea is stupid and looks ridiculous.

[30:45] Your friend that you haven't seen in years shows up as his childhood, in his childhood guy.

[30:49] And in his underwear, either you go the other way or you go, hold on, wait for the light.

[30:56] I'll be right there.

Stuart Wellington

[30:57] You take the paper bag wrapped liquor bottle you've been sipping off of and you dump it out and you're like, never again.

Evan Dorkin

[31:04] I mean, he looks like he looks – when they finally do show it, it's absolutely ridiculous.

[31:09] Yeah.

[31:09] It's like a G.G. Allen concert across the street or something like that.

[31:13] It's like – but he walks into all the CGI traffic.

[31:17] It's not like that Final Destination car.

[31:22] The silent Final Destination car that wipes you out out of nowhere.

[31:26] There's cars going – he just plays the worst game of Frogger ever.

Elliott Kalan

[31:30] And he doesn't – it's not like – he doesn't seem as if he's about to run across like, oh, no, an emergency.

[31:34] He just steps right in.

Evan Dorkin

[31:35] And it looks like he's possessed or something.

[31:38] But he's not.

Stuart Wellington

[31:39] That's never discussed.

[31:41] And also like if you saw your friend gesturing at you across the street, you would still like look.

[31:47] You wouldn't be like, oh, man, I got to get smushed first.

Evan Dorkin

[31:50] Yeah.

[31:51] And it is an amazingly bad way to start your drama off.

[31:55] You know, he gets hit by multiple cars.

[31:58] He's destroyed.

[31:59] People say he's dead.

[32:00] Then he's told not to look out for his – and then he's in a cabin six months later.

Elliott Kalan

[32:04] I mean it's the only flaw in an otherwise perfect way.

Stuart Wellington

[32:07] If only our bodies could all recover this quickly.

[32:10] That's the joy of being what?

[32:11] He's what, like 30s?

Evan Dorkin

[32:13] I don't know.

[32:14] We don't know.

[32:15] We don't know.

[32:16] And time is interesting in this film because I think it's been a 20-year gap from when they were kids.

[32:20] Yeah.

[32:20] But they all talk like they're –

[32:23] From the 50s, yeah.

Dan McCoy

[32:24] They talk like they're still kids, yeah.

[32:25] Well, that's –

[32:26] The stand-by-me bullshit.

[32:27] That's the next thing.

[32:28] We all have some unfunny banter for a while.

[32:31] The idea of a memory warehouse is introduced and we get, as Evan suggested, some very literal visual representations of Jonesy going through his memory warehouse.

Stuart Wellington

[32:42] And a thing that might work in a book.

[32:45] Yeah.

[32:46] But we also get Stephen King's Hey Fellow Kids.

Evan Dorkin

[32:51] We get him holding a skateboard and playing Wes's face.

[32:56] I'm blanking out on the singer.

[32:58] Stephen Sammy?

[32:59] Yeah, no, no.

[33:00] Blue Bayou?

[33:01] Roy Orbison.

[33:02] We get Roy Orbison rock and roll from these –

[33:04] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[33:04] Yeah.

[33:05] Who grew up in the 90s or the 80s.

[33:07] Toss on, Ooby Dooby.

Elliott Kalan

[33:09] Oh, that's true.

[33:10] Yeah, when he's like, don't forget the words to Blue Bayou, right?

[33:13] And I'm like, what the – what do you –

Evan Dorkin

[33:15] Yeah, Blue Bayou.

[33:16] That was a big hit in 1980, 90.

[33:19] Sure.

Dan McCoy

[33:21] But, yeah, we get a lot of the slang that was previously mentioned.

[33:24] Fuckaroo, fuckaro.

[33:26] Jesus Christ bananas comes in.

[33:29] So later on, someone says a real Jabba Nava.

[33:32] Jabba Nava.

Elliott Kalan

[33:34] What's funny is then when Morgan Freeman gets him, it's like he's trying to outdo them.

[33:39] Yes.

[33:39] Because he's like, hey, buddy buckaroo.

[33:40] Okay, buddy boy, buckaroo boy.

Evan Dorkin

[33:41] He's going back to Easy Reader days or something like that.

[33:45] That's a real Jabba Nava there.

[33:46] Yeah, pissing in the same latrine.

[33:48] All the gorilla.

[33:49] The thing that's really bad about that sequence is –

[33:52] are we going to go through the whole thing and then talk about –

[33:55] I don't understand if I –

[33:55] No, no, we can talk as we go.

[33:57] Okay, so what's really terrible about that whole getting to know these guys,

[34:02] which you don't actually get to know them at all because it's just horrible banter,

[34:06] which is why we were joking before.

[34:08] Does Stephen King have friends?

[34:09] Does he talk to people?

[34:11] Because it seems to be this whole inner life writing.

[34:16] It's just devoid of real life.

[34:18] But Kat – I mean, whatever you want to say about Katzlin and Goldman did, watch these.

[34:23] These are actors on a set, speaking lines, wearing makeup, being lit.

[34:29] It is such a phony, synthetic sequence.

[34:33] It is just so – it doesn't even reach the level of commercial advertising reality.

[34:39] It is just so forced and it's depressing because it's like – it really does feel like, you know, hello – hey, fellow kids.

[34:46] I mean it's just –

Elliott Kalan

[34:47] But you're kind of right.

[34:48] If they started talking about – you know, have you ever – I mean they do start talking about Viagra at one point, right?

[34:53] And it fails to reach the level of reality of a Viagra commercial where people are like, you know, I've been having a little bit of trouble with the old lady.

[34:59] Well, you know, my doctor gave me some advice.

[35:02] Like it feels like they're failing to meet that level.

Evan Dorkin

[35:04] Viagra is also the most recent, I think, pop culture or, you know, world reference that's in – because we also have Mars bars.

[35:11] We have Louisville sluggers.

[35:14] I mean I'm old enough to get this shit.

[35:16] Maybe you guys are close enough.

[35:18] But it's like – when's the last time you heard the word Louisville slugger in your life?

[35:22] Yeah, yeah.

[35:23] It takes you – I mean there's just no way into this film to try to enjoy it.

[35:28] It's just impenetrable.

Dan McCoy

[35:31] Yeah, and it's filled with seemingly irrelevant stuff.

[35:37] Like we get a flashback to Derry, one of Stephen King's favorite locations.

[35:44] Derry, Ireland, yeah.

[35:45] The trouble.

[35:46] It's like his Toronto.

Evan Dorkin

[35:47] It's like the cheapest place to film or something.

[35:49] We see the four –

[35:51] It's cheaper to write things set in Derry.

Elliott Kalan

[35:53] He's like it's cheaper to write a novel set in Derry.

[35:55] You don't know.

[35:55] It's just like everything's cheaper.

Evan Dorkin

[35:56] I know people there.

[35:57] I have deals.

Dan McCoy

[36:00] The child versions of our four leads find a shirt and a Scooby-Doo lunchbox and that's because they've been ripped off of duditz by some bullies.

Elliott Kalan

[36:10] The Scooby-Doo references may be the worst of the references in the movie.

[36:13] Yes.

[36:14] Yes.

[36:15] To have a character in a – just to spoil something, but to have a character in the serious climax of the movie go,

[36:22] Ooby-Doo-Bee-Doo, we got some work to do now.

Evan Dorkin

[36:26] It is amazing.

[36:27] It's amazing that that survived at every level of filmmaking that probably gets there.

Stuart Wellington

[36:32] So this poor kid is being bullied by some high schoolers, I think, and one of them is the captain of the football team who is trying to force feed him a dog turd.

[36:44] And I'm like, just to do that means he has to touch a dog turd.

[36:47] Yeah.

[36:48] Yeah.

Dan McCoy

[36:48] Right?

[36:48] Well, also, like, he is, like, shamed into backing off.

[36:53] Basically, like, oh, we'll tell you – we'll tell everyone in school how you get your kicks.

[36:56] I'm like, I hate to tell you guys, but little kids are, like, sociopaths.

[37:01] They're going to side with the captain of the football team.

Evan Dorkin

[37:04] He says, we're going to tell the world, which was pretty hilarious.

[37:09] We're going to tell the world that you feed this guy.

[37:11] And also, the idea that they've somehow never met this kid before.

Stuart Wellington

[37:15] Like, where did he come from?

[37:16] I believe he went to a different school.

[37:18] I think they do address that he went to, like, a special needs school.

[37:20] They actually backed something up in this movie?

Elliott Kalan

[37:22] My God.

[37:22] I mean, I don't know how well, but –

[37:24] I mean, there must have been some scene that got cut that shows why they don't get the shit kicked out of them the next time they leave the house.

[37:30] It makes no sense.

Evan Dorkin

[37:32] And it's funny because they really are a, you know, a Temu, Stephen King bully group.

[37:38] They seem to be –

[37:39] Yes.

[37:40] I mean, what's really sad about it is that the first shot you get in the flashback is them walking.

[37:44] And no one on earth can see that without going, this is Stand By Me.

[37:48] Yeah, 100%.

[37:49] It just looks like a terrible Stand By Me flashback.

[37:52] And in fact, I think the next time we flashback, they're walking by train tracks, which is – like, it just should not be allowed, you know?

[38:01] It should be illegal.

[38:03] Dead bodies littered everywhere.

[38:05] It was –

[38:06] It's vaguely insulting and kind of really cheating.

[38:10] Deep and beneath filmmakers to go that far.

[38:14] I mean, the film is such a grab bag.

[38:17] Yeah.

[38:18] It's King things in the first place.

[38:20] It does feel like –

[38:20] They should have Christine driving by.

[38:22] Yeah.

[38:23] And then Cujo runs by.

Elliott Kalan

[38:24] It feels like they've ordered Stephen King by the pound.

[38:28] Yeah.

[38:28] They're just like, yep, 10 pounds of Stephen King.

[38:30] And they're just – do we specify what parts we get?

[38:33] No, no.

[38:33] They just slop it all into a bag of Stephen King.

Dan McCoy

[38:35] Yeah, it doesn't matter.

[38:37] Snouts.

[38:38] Yeah.

[38:38] But they befriend Duditz.

[38:40] That's the whole point of that.

[38:41] Yes.

[38:41] Back in the present, Damien Lewis is in a hunter's blind, and he sees this injured man walking through the show and brings him inside.

[38:48] To the show?

[38:49] Through the snow probably, right?

[38:50] The snow, sorry.

[38:51] Yeah, he does – he's not walking through the show.

[38:53] He's not walking through a production of Schmigadoon on Broadway now.

[38:56] I hear Smash Mouth is playing in this forest, he says.

Stuart Wellington

[39:01] I'm being called by the siren song of Smash Mouth.

[39:03] It's the perfect band for this film.

[39:05] Oh, excuse me.

[39:06] Roy Orbison and Linda Ronstadt.

Evan Dorkin

[39:09] This ended in Hall Star.

Elliott Kalan

[39:11] Is Del Shannon performing around here?

[39:13] Oh, yeah.

[39:14] A huge superstar, Del Shannon.

[39:15] Yeah, of course.

Dan McCoy

[39:17] Yeah, he brings him inside.

[39:19] Del Shannon.

[39:20] He brings this man inside where the man can't stop burping and farting, and he's got a new dude.

Stuart Wellington

[39:27] So the movie gets super pleasant.

Elliott Kalan

[39:30] So this is when the movie – I feel like the movie reaches – it's had a number of tests that it has failed up to this point.

[39:35] This is when it reaches the hardest test and the easiest to fail, which is can this movie maintain a tone of horror when you have a character who's just burping and farting as loud as possible?

Dan McCoy

[39:46] I think – like Roger Ebert had a quote where it's like, this movie has too many farts for a movie that's supposed to be taken seriously.

[39:53] Something like that.

[39:55] How many farts is there?

Evan Dorkin

[39:57] You know, Mr. Owl, how many farts?

Elliott Kalan

[40:00] Oh, he could –

Evan Dorkin

[40:01] The tortoise could never figure it out without biting.

[40:04] Zero, please.

[40:04] Yeah.

[40:05] And the thing is also, it's just – the actor, it's just such a sitcom level kind of everything.

[40:13] The guy's make – I mean it's just ludicrous.

[40:15] It's like – this is like an episode of Alice or something with it.

Elliott Kalan

[40:20] But also he's clearly – there's clearly something seriously wrong with him, and they're like, you okay, buddy?

Evan Dorkin

[40:24] Well, his belly's distended like there's a thing in there.

[40:26] He's got a balloon in his chest, and he's got red makeup all over his face, and he's acting really badly.

Stuart Wellington

[40:32] And one of them's like, yeah, go sleep in my bed.

[40:35] Yeah, exactly.

[40:37] Well, these are the nicest guys.

[40:39] They're the nicest people in the world.

Evan Dorkin

[40:39] If you're ever being fed a turd by bullies, they will show up to stop you.

Dan McCoy

[40:44] Stop them.

[40:44] But that's what Jonesy and the Beaver are up to.

[40:46] They're all thing farting.

Evan Dorkin

[40:48] Yeah, the Beaver shows up eventually and says some – oh, I can't remember that one.

[40:53] He has some other great bon mots.

[40:55] Yeah.

[40:56] Fart-related references.

Stuart Wellington

[40:58] Yeah.

[40:58] Meanwhile, what –

[41:00] I was going to say, what's Tom Jane to do?

Dan McCoy

[41:01] Tom Jane and Tim Oliphant are coming back to the cabin.

[41:06] They see someone sitting in the middle of the road, and they swerve to avoid them, flip their truck, and investigate.

[41:11] This woman in the snow, she's nearly frozen.

Stuart Wellington

[41:14] This little trip in there is not going well.

[41:15] Yeah.

[41:16] No, no, no.

Dan McCoy

[41:17] These guys are really boring.

[41:18] Also farting a lot.

[41:19] Super fuck-ups.

Elliott Kalan

[41:21] Yeah.

[41:21] They're very bad at what they're – like that you – one, I don't know why they're driving so fast down a snowy woodland road that they can't stop.

Evan Dorkin

[41:29] They do cover this in a very Stephen King way.

[41:33] They have – you know how they have their buddy shtick, but they start basically – they've got to get over this hill so they start –

[41:39] Oh, right.

[41:40] Come on, pump it or some dumb thing.

[41:42] Like, you know, and it's terrible.

[41:43] That's right.

[41:44] And it makes no sense.

[41:46] Yeah.

Elliott Kalan

[41:48] But I would say this is –

Evan Dorkin

[41:49] It gets us to them crashing outside the farting woman.

[41:52] Yeah.

Elliott Kalan

[41:52] This is up there maybe ahead of deliverance in terms of guys trips out that don't go well.

[41:58] Yes.

Evan Dorkin

[41:58] Farting woman would be a good alternative to Burning Man, I think.

[42:02] Yes.

[42:03] Sorry.

[42:04] Turn aside.

Dan McCoy

[42:05] Or like a –

[42:06] Booby-dooby.

[42:07] Sort of a –

[42:07] An inn or a tavern.

[42:10] Yeah, yeah.

[42:10] The farting woman.

Elliott Kalan

[42:11] Yeah, that's – it's like a pub in a particularly poorly run Dungeons & Dragons game.

[42:15] Oh, yeah.

[42:15] That's good.

[42:16] Get a tanker and a veil of the farting woman.

[42:17] Yeah.

Evan Dorkin

[42:18] That's when you beat the bard up, right?

[42:19] Yeah.

[42:20] Yeah.

[42:20] Always got to kick the bard's ass.

Dan McCoy

[42:23] Oh, bite my bag.

[42:24] He says bite my bag.

[42:25] He says bite my bag.

[42:26] Yeah.

[42:28] At the cabin.

Stuart Wellington

[42:30] His bag of holding, of course.

[42:31] Yeah.

[42:32] Very good.

Dan McCoy

[42:33] Very good.

[42:34] Beeb and Jonesy, Lee and Lewis, see a bunch of animals running away.

[42:39] They also have the rash and a helicopter arrives.

[42:42] It's hovering above them with a megaphone.

[42:44] This whole area is under quarantine.

[42:46] They have to stay put.

[42:47] It will be resolved within 48 hours.

[42:49] And inside the helicopter, Morgan Freeman, our other big star of the picture.

[42:52] With some great eyebrows.

[42:53] Those eyebrows are amazing.

Stuart Wellington

[42:55] George Whipple is fucking flying this thing.

Evan Dorkin

[42:57] That's amazing, those eyebrows.

[43:00] I mean you can't stop staring at them.

Stuart Wellington

[43:02] Every scene.

[43:03] That's regional newsman George Whipple.

[43:07] Oh my God.

Dan McCoy

[43:10] Jonesy and the Beeb, they see a blood trail to the bathroom.

[43:12] They check on the sick man.

[43:14] He is dead on the toilet, bleeding from the rectum.

[43:17] Something's swimming around in the toilet.

Elliott Kalan

[43:19] So this is when they felt, this is when they got to this part of the script and they said,

[43:22] green light it.

[43:23] Yeah.

[43:24] Bofo B.O.

Evan Dorkin

[43:24] Yeah.

[43:25] This is the part where you kind of, everybody needs to go into people's houses and remove Oscars.

Dan McCoy

[43:29] Lee is stuck on the toilet.

[43:32] He's trying to hold it down.

[43:34] He's like Danny Glover in Lethal Weapon 2.

[43:36] Yeah.

[43:36] Move.

[43:37] Yeah.

[43:38] You got to get into the toothpick.

[43:40] You got to get the toothpick.

Elliott Kalan

[43:41] Also, he drops his toothpicks.

[43:43] They're dropped in the bloody feces.

[43:46] I mean there's blood everywhere.

[43:48] There's blood everywhere.

[43:49] They drop on the floor and he is like trying to reach for one but still trying to hold down

[43:53] the toilet.

[43:54] It's like, let your toothpicks go.

[43:55] They're covered in blood.

[43:56] The dumbest behavior.

Evan Dorkin

[43:58] It's one of the dumbest things I've ever – you've ever seen in a film.

[44:01] And not only that, but they give him a chance to think about it because he reaches for a

[44:06] toothpick and the creature tries to – it bounces him up in the air.

[44:11] Yeah.

[44:11] So he gets – you know what I mean?

[44:12] Somebody actually says, hang on, Kimo Sabe.

[44:15] Yeah.

[44:16] There's an ass monster in the toilet below you.

[44:20] If you reach for that, it can come out.

[44:22] I mean he's clearly given the choice and he does it again.

[44:26] Yeah.

[44:27] Yeah.

Dan McCoy

[44:27] Well, yeah, he's alone because Jonesy is going to get some duct tape or whatever to like

[44:31] tape it down.

Stuart Wellington

[44:32] To tape the toilet seat down.

[44:33] But yeah.

[44:34] Guys, we've all been there, right?

[44:36] So Beave –

[44:37] Yes.

Dan McCoy

[44:38] Beave is like reaching for a toothpick that's fallen.

[44:40] He does like go for the one that's like not in the blood but it's still on the bathroom

[44:45] floor.

Evan Dorkin

[44:47] He doesn't need a toothpick to live.

[44:49] Yeah.

[44:50] There's no reason for – I mean I realize his whole personality is he has a toothpick in

[44:54] his head.

[44:55] Yeah.

[44:56] But he's not going to die without the toothpick.

Stuart Wellington

[44:59] This is definitely the behavior of the type of person who wears shoes in other people's

[45:03] houses, right?

[45:05] Yeah.

[45:05] I mean what?

Elliott Kalan

[45:07] It's written as if he's reaching for like his insulin shot or his inhaler.

[45:11] Right.

Evan Dorkin

[45:11] No, you would think that this is the asthma, you know what I mean?

[45:16] The asthma scene that's –

Stuart Wellington

[45:17] Even if it was a cigarette.

[45:18] If it was a cigarette at least I'd be like –

Evan Dorkin

[45:20] That's what I was saying.

[45:21] Okay, he's nervous.

[45:22] I don't know.

[45:22] But I mean a tooth fucking – he can't wait for a toothpick?

[45:28] Un-fucking-believable.

[45:29] How do you read that script?

Elliott Kalan

[45:30] This is one of two scenes where someone fumbles with something and you see a whole bunch of

[45:34] things falls because it's due to matches later.

[45:36] Yeah, it's slow motion.

Evan Dorkin

[45:36] Yeah.

[45:37] Because you might miss it.

[45:38] The audience might not – you might blink and not know that they dropped the object.

[45:42] It's actually – I mean it's not germane to the movie but it's amazing.

[45:46] You had to drink every time there was an insert shot or two guys looking at each other so

[45:51] that you know that the point was made.

[45:53] It is such an anxious movie.

[45:56] Yeah.

[45:56] It really doesn't think that audiences have eyeballs.

[45:59] Yeah.

[46:00] It's constantly – did you see that?

[46:02] The toothpicks?

Stuart Wellington

[46:03] Well, there's also the point when all the animals – my wife pointed this out.

[46:07] Oh, my god.

[46:07] When all the animals are like going away from whatever came.

[46:10] The Disney scene, yeah.

[46:12] And she's – and like the one guy's like, hey, Beeb.

[46:14] And Beeb doesn't do anything.

[46:16] And he's like, beaver, beaver.

[46:17] Until he like turns around and looks.

[46:19] Or Jonesy.

[46:20] I don't remember which one.

[46:21] Yeah.

[46:21] But it's like, no, you would react.

[46:23] Like human beings react to things.

[46:25] No, the reactions are –

[46:25] Like you would have turned around.

[46:26] The reactions are horrible.

[46:26] It's also the kind of thing you would probably hear before you didn't have to see.

Elliott Kalan

[46:30] I mean that kind of stuff happens in movies all the time where like you don't notice a thing that's happening until you see it even if it's a loud – it would be a loud thing.

[46:36] Also, if I saw that happening.

Evan Dorkin

[46:38] I like that the animals are also really orally.

[46:41] You kind of expect Sleeping Beauty, Disney Sleeping Beauty, and walk through that scene.

[46:46] Birds on her, you know, adjoining her.

[46:48] It's a ridiculous scene.

[46:50] Speaking of another Disney movie.

[46:51] It sounds great in the book, I bet, because that's an interesting – you know, the reaction of Flora, blah, blah, blah.

[46:56] Oh, the frogs.

[46:58] There's no noise.

[46:59] I always enjoy that in a movie where you know something big and bad is coming.

[47:04] But it's like, what is it reacting?

[47:05] You don't know what it's actually reacting to.

Dan McCoy

[47:07] Staying on the Disney thing, I would think, oh, Bambi.

[47:12] Like if I saw that happening, I would be like, oh, there's a forest fire coming this way.

[47:16] We have to leave this cabin.

[47:18] I wouldn't be like, let's hang out.

Elliott Kalan

[47:20] But they've been told by the helicopter they're quarantined, which Jason Lee seems to take very personally.

[47:24] He's like, we got a sick man down here.

[47:26] Oh, he goes crazy.

[47:27] Yeah, it's quarantined.

[47:27] And he goes, no.

Evan Dorkin

[47:28] They set it up as if Beeb is going to have a, you know, a pole fight with Morgan Freeman later because he gives him the finger.

[47:36] And then they show Morgan Freeman staring him down.

Stuart Wellington

[47:39] It's like, it's – wow.

[47:41] Is it bad?

[47:42] Jason Lee doesn't have that finger for very long.

[47:44] No, no, no, no.

[47:44] No, no.

Stuart Wellington

[47:44] No, no.

[47:45] He gets –

[47:46] That's my favorite scene.

Dan McCoy

[47:46] For his toothpick idiocy.

[47:49] And he, like, slips.

[47:51] The thing comes out of the toilet.

[47:52] It's like this worm penis tentacle with big rows of teeth.

[47:56] And it immediately eats his fingers.

[47:58] It's an okay.

Elliott Kalan

[47:58] It's an okay kind of slimy alien monster thing.

[48:00] It's all right.

[48:01] It's not great.

[48:01] Doesn't it actually –

[48:02] Doesn't it make any quality –

[48:04] No, I'm just saying.

[48:04] I'm just saying it for the audience.

[48:06] Yeah.

Evan Dorkin

[48:06] Doesn't it bite him in the crotch the first thing it does?

Stuart Wellington

[48:09] I think later it bites Tom's chin.

[48:11] Oh, to the elephant.

Evan Dorkin

[48:12] There's two.

[48:12] Oh, to the elephant.

[48:13] Two crotch shots if I –

[48:15] Oh.

[48:16] This thing comes out of – and it starts fucking with him and then it eventually gets him.

[48:22] It takes his finger.

[48:23] But I believe it bites him in the crotch because later on we have a second crotch.

[48:27] Oh, it could be.

[48:28] With –

[48:29] Oh, no.

[48:30] Yeah.

Stuart Wellington

[48:30] Well, either way, he gets killed.

[48:32] Yes.

[48:32] He gets his – I think he gets his crotch grabbed and bit on the back of the neck.

Dan McCoy

[48:37] Jonesy locks it in the bathroom.

[48:38] Some people like that.

[48:39] But it gets out.

[48:40] It crawls past him towards this new strange creature who's big – who's just arrived.

[48:45] It's a big gray alien that's sort of vaguely close encounter-ish.

[48:50] This alien leans in towards Lewis before his head explodes into a red mist that I guess Lewis breathes in.

[48:57] The mist.

[48:58] Yep.

[48:59] Cut to the local military encampment where Morgan Freeman –

[49:04] This is where plot three of the movie rips itself into plots one and two.

Evan Dorkin

[49:08] You get these nice like, you know, sub-Spielbergian military music and shots with a budget that, you know, you just kind of see money coming.

[49:18] And going through us this space.

[49:20] You know, we're opening this up.

Dan McCoy

[49:23] Morgan Freeman talks to his second in command played by Tom Sizemore.

[49:29] That's a good sign.

[49:30] That's a good sign right there, right?

[49:31] Yeah.

[49:33] Just need Michael Madsen to walk in.

Elliott Kalan

[49:37] But that's the problem with casting Tom Sizemore.

[49:39] They have to fight each other.

[49:40] I was waiting for that character to lose it.

[49:42] To press please ball, yeah.

Dan McCoy

[49:44] Yeah.

[49:44] But he's very nice.

[49:46] Yeah.

[49:46] Even when weird stuff happens.

[49:48] Oh, you think weird stuff happens?

[49:50] We get some info dump stuff that doesn't really clear much up.

[49:53] But these gray aliens have been here before.

[49:57] They're trying to infect people with some kind of fungus, which also causes people to sprout these things that are called shit weasels.

Elliott Kalan

[50:05] They call the fungus virus Ripley as a reference to aliens.

[50:09] And I hate that.

[50:10] Which they have to mention in the movie as a reference to aliens.

Evan Dorkin

[50:13] It's really bad when you're ripping something off and then you actually acknowledge it.

Dan McCoy

[50:17] Well, he's also called Colonel Curtis, which is obviously an allusion to Colonel Kurtz, which he actually was Colonel Kurtz in the book.

[50:27] So I guess that was one case where William Golden was like, this is too obvious.

[50:30] We got to settle this up a little bit.

Elliott Kalan

[50:33] And he's on there to a special unit of the military that just tracks down alien outbreaks and does not answer to anyone else.

[50:38] Yeah.

Evan Dorkin

[50:39] They're the blue boy buckaroos or whatever.

[50:41] The blue boy buckaroos.

[50:41] Yeah.

[50:41] They don't answer to logic.

[50:43] 25 years they've been doing this.

[50:45] And they know like 12 sentences about what they're doing and they give it all to you.

Elliott Kalan

[50:50] It's also one of those things where if you've been doing this for 25 years, it seems like the thing that would probably help you is for the public to be aware of this issue and be on guard against it.

[50:58] So that you can help to deal with it.

[51:01] Instead, they've kept it a secret all this time.

[51:02] But it's not even like, and we've gotten all this stuff from the alien technology or something like that.

[51:06] We can't let the Russians know about this.

Evan Dorkin

[51:08] When you see later in the film what the alien invasion comprises, it makes absolutely no sense that everybody on Earth hasn't seen this before.

[51:17] Yeah.

[51:18] You know, this is not like a – they don't send like a SEAL team.

[51:23] No.

[51:24] You know, it's a close encounter as big-ass bunch of ships they have.

[51:29] Yeah.

Elliott Kalan

[51:30] And there's hundreds of aliens coming out of it when we see it.

[51:32] Or at the very least dozens.

[51:33] Yeah.

Stuart Wellington

[51:34] You would think there would be like public service announcements like if you see this worm, step on it.

[51:38] Or don't reach for a toothpick.

Elliott Kalan

[51:40] In New Jersey, they're like, if you see a lanternfly, step on it immediately and kill it.

[51:45] And it's like there's not a secret government operation that goes around killing lanternflies to protect the trees.

[51:50] You know, like people can never know.

[51:51] Actually, I do have a tree where I panic too much.

Evan Dorkin

[51:55] One of the biggest failings in the film, and that's a long list, is that we're never told whether the Ripley disease is a new item in their – you know, is a new weapon.

[52:07] Because if it turns out that they've had this before, the movie makes even less sense.

Dan McCoy

[52:14] Well, I do think they try and paper over it a little bit because they have like Tom Sizemore being like – there's studies showing that like some people recover.

[52:23] And Morgan Freeman is like, fuck that.

[52:24] I'm going to kill them all.

Evan Dorkin

[52:25] Which is actually bad for the film because this should be a new disease that they don't exactly know how to deal with because otherwise not only they're incompetent, this movie ended before it began.

[52:35] Yeah.

[52:35] There's no – the dumbest alien – basically the problem with this movie is that this is a movie about an advanced alien culture that has massive spaceships, interstellar travel, weaponry.

[52:47] And they don't know how to do something that the Joker can do in an average –

[52:53] They do not know how to drop a worm into a reservoir or an ocean.

[53:00] It's just unbelievable.

Elliott Kalan

[53:02] It seems strange to me that when we see the gray aliens, they're big and they seem very strong.

[53:07] But they've got to like get into Jonesy's body when he's injured already and try to lift a cap off of a reservoir.

Dan McCoy

[53:14] Well, they're trying to get out of the quarantine as a hitchhiker.

[53:17] That's the idea.

[53:18] And I guess the idea is that they crashed.

[53:21] But I 100% did not even like –

[53:23] Yes.

Evan Dorkin

[53:23] The thing about this film, the bullshit setup is that they crashed.

[53:29] Yeah.

[53:29] But it's really stupid aliens versus stupid people.

[53:34] Yeah, yeah.

[53:35] No, it totally –

[53:36] It's also like that mobile game, by the way.

Stuart Wellington

[53:39] Yeah.

[53:39] That sounds great.

[53:39] That sounds great, yeah.

Dan McCoy

[53:41] They should have been able to drop the worm before they crashed.

Evan Dorkin

[53:44] They could have done – they could do it next Tuesday.

[53:46] They could have done it last Tuesday.

[53:48] And also they show later that the aliens can impregnate their eggs in animals.

[53:56] So any one of those Disney animals – and there were hundreds.

[54:00] Yes.

[54:01] Animals that seek out water.

[54:03] None of the soldiers are told, look for animals.

[54:07] Court – it's an idiotic premise that just does not get contained at any moment.

[54:13] It does not make sense.

Elliott Kalan

[54:14] And this is one of the many movies we've watched for this podcast where there are aliens that are advanced enough that they have like spaceships.

[54:20] They do probably genetic testing.

[54:22] They have not discovered clothing.

[54:24] They do not seem to have any sort of words.

[54:25] They're just going to growl.

Evan Dorkin

[54:26] They advance beyond clothing.

[54:28] He says in the scene that we were just – that you were talking about, he says – Morgan Freeman's character says – he infers that they don't – they haven't met a planet yet that they haven't wanted to conquer or something along those words.

[54:43] I wrote it down somewhere.

[54:44] But how does he know that?

[54:47] They can't even tell what they're doing on Earth.

[54:49] How does he know what they're doing on other planets?

[54:51] Has he read their newspaper?

[54:54] He gets their sub stack or something?

[54:56] Yeah, he's in their sub stack.

[54:58] What the fuck?

[54:59] How do you believe that?

[55:01] How do – as a viewer and as somebody who has written words for money, how do you fucking not let – how do you not have somebody just go, dudes, this makes no sense.

[55:12] But we can fix – you can fix this.

[55:14] Yeah.

[55:15] You can fix – these are things that you could paper over, as you said, in a weekend.

[55:21] That's what professionals are supposed to do.

[55:23] And this whole movie is just really flying craziness.

[55:28] It's not – what not to do in Hollywood except that this is a real film that got made.

[55:32] So all bets are off.

Dan McCoy

[55:34] I pulled out my copy of What Lie Did I Tell?

[55:37] And I'm like, oh, man, it's a shame that William Goldman wrote this before he did Dreamcatcher.

[55:42] It cuts off before – I would love to hear him talk about –

Elliott Kalan

[55:45] It's the last page of the book.

[55:46] It says, and then I wrote Dreamcatcher.

[55:47] And then it's the last – that's the last –

Dan McCoy

[55:48] And I can't wait for this next thing I'm writing.

Elliott Kalan

[55:51] The next thing I'm writing will be the best one.

Dan McCoy

[55:53] We get a brief scene where Freeman shoots an underling in the hand.

[55:59] Just to show how serious this is.

[56:00] Yeah, he's not a good dude.

Stuart Wellington

[56:02] He's not a normal boss.

[56:03] He's a cool boss.

[56:04] Yeah.

Evan Dorkin

[56:05] This is how we know that he's crazy.

[56:07] Yeah.

[56:08] Because he's so bored with the movie that you can't tell otherwise.

[56:12] Also, I love that the guy's shooting like his equipment.

[56:17] Yeah.

[56:17] Letting bullets off in his high tech –

Elliott Kalan

[56:19] The side of his trailer.

[56:20] Yeah.

Evan Dorkin

[56:20] Brilliant.

[56:21] Absolutely brilliant.

Elliott Kalan

[56:23] And it's one of these things where the story is probably more interesting if Morgan Freeman's character is not crazy.

[56:30] Yeah.

[56:30] If he's like, no, we're under attack and the only way to stop it is to kill all these infected people.

Evan Dorkin

[56:35] I mean he's not completely wrong.

[56:38] Yeah.

[56:38] I mean you hate him as a villain because he's willing to sacrifice people for the greater good.

[56:44] But that's kind of what you have to do when you deal with aliens.

[56:50] I love this one's argument.

Dan McCoy

[56:50] Yeah.

[56:50] With an alien plague.

[56:53] Jonesy is now acting weird, making weird faces.

[56:56] He gets on a snowmobile.

[56:58] Tom Jane is trying to walk to the cabin.

[57:01] So Timothy Oliphant is alone getting drunk with the farting woman.

[57:06] He's not alone.

[57:07] He's with farting.

[57:07] He's watching over her.

[57:08] Yeah.

[57:09] He doesn't realize that she has died and not just asleep.

[57:11] And his friend told him, don't leave her alone.

[57:14] To go get beer from the car.

[57:15] From the snowmobile.

[57:16] But he's drinking.

[57:17] Yeah.

[57:18] He fucked it up.

[57:18] But he does.

[57:19] Well, he had some in his pockets already.

Evan Dorkin

[57:20] She has expelled the shit weasel.

[57:21] He leaves her alone and she passes out.

[57:24] Yeah, yeah.

[57:25] He misses the initial farting sequence.

Elliott Kalan

[57:30] That sounds like something that should be in the Spaceballs sequel.

[57:33] It's like a fart powered spaceship wheel.

[57:34] Initial farting sequence.

[57:35] Initial farting sequence.

Dan McCoy

[57:39] He does a little soliloquy.

[57:40] He talks about how Duditz gave them all psychic powers and he's been having these dreams.

[57:45] It suggests that Duditz is an alien sent there to prepare them for something.

[57:49] Oh, okay.

Elliott Kalan

[57:50] The movie, considering there's so much bonkers stuff in this movie, it so takes it for granted

[57:55] that we assume that they are kids who got telepathic powers from their friend, the mentally challenged

[58:01] kid.

[58:02] The movie is just like, yeah, yeah.

[58:03] So then Duditz gave us these psychic powers.

[58:05] That seems like the kind of thing you'd spend some time on.

Evan Dorkin

[58:08] They show them later, we'll get to when they get the powers and realize they have the powers

[58:13] and they take it as if they just found an extra nickel in their coat.

[58:17] It's just, it's a nothing.

[58:18] They don't have time.

[58:19] It's a two hour.

[58:20] How long is this movie?

[58:21] This movie's like seven hours.

[58:22] Two hours and 15 minutes.

[58:23] Yeah.

[58:23] And they don't have time to establish things, you know.

[58:26] Yeah.

[58:27] They just don't.

[58:28] So.

[58:28] Too many ideas.

[58:29] Too many good ideas.

[58:30] Too many farts to animate.

[58:30] Psychic powers?

[58:31] Too many farts.

[58:32] Thumbs up for psychic powers.

[58:33] Yeah.

[58:33] They just accept these things.

[58:35] And you still don't, even with this exposition dump, you still don't know why they're upset

[58:40] with life.

[58:41] Yeah.

[58:42] Because he's an alcoholic.

[58:43] They've dealt with him a little bit before he's drinking in the daytime.

Stuart Wellington

[58:47] But I think you're right.

[58:48] I think there is one of the many missing pieces is that they don't address that the reason

[58:53] these guys have struggled, like emotional problems is because of these powers, this or responsibility

[59:00] they've gotten from their friend Duditz.

Evan Dorkin

[59:02] Which is really weird if you're a Stephen King fan or an ex-Stephen King fan because

[59:06] that's one of the things he was always good at.

[59:08] Yeah.

[59:09] You think about The Shining or Salem's Lot, you understood the trauma aspect because everybody

[59:14] had, you know, especially all the writers, they had to have writers all had to have trauma

[59:18] because sometimes you're a writer.

[59:20] You might go walk out of your million dollar house and get hit by a car someday.

[59:24] Yeah.

[59:25] So, but they don't even attempt to lock in.

[59:30] Why are they friends or even, why do they stay in touch?

[59:34] There was a great scene though where one of them, when they get into the cabin and somebody

[59:37] says something like, well, we've been doing this for 28 years or something like, and it's

[59:42] just, it's just, the dialogue is such a, a on the nose garbage slop.

[59:48] It's such, it's a, this is an AI movie for God's sakes.

[59:51] But do you ever walk, you know, we've been coming to your house for 15 years now and et cetera.

[59:57] It's unbelievable.

[59:59] But yeah, like, please, please go on.

Elliott Kalan

[1:00:02] Gilbert Gottfried on his podcast, you talk about movies for someone who go like, Marty,

[1:00:05] I'm your brother for crying out loud.

[1:00:07] Don't you remember?

[1:00:08] Establish this.

Evan Dorkin

[1:00:09] They literally say, how do you not remember the memory warehouse?

[1:00:14] Yeah.

[1:00:15] Oh, that's right.

[1:00:16] That we have to live in.

[1:00:16] And I'm like, I guess that was so clever, but it's just stupid.

[1:00:20] Your friends don't remember that you have a, and you're all psychic.

[1:00:23] So you should be fucking talking with your mouths closed anyway.

[1:00:27] But that's, that's actually something we haven't even dealt with.

[1:00:29] They don't really need to be psychic in this movie.

[1:00:32] No, not at all.

[1:00:33] Except to find each other later.

Stuart Wellington

[1:00:34] They're like, well, I gotta find Dice.

[1:00:35] They find each other later.

Evan Dorkin

[1:00:36] And it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just a simple.

Stuart Wellington

[1:00:38] I mean, two of them definitely don't need to be psychic.

[1:00:41] Thomas Jane does use it to convince.

Evan Dorkin

[1:00:42] Yeah, fingers, fingers doesn't need, you know, beef.

[1:00:44] Tom Sizemore.

Elliott Kalan

[1:00:46] That's true.

[1:00:46] Thomas Jane uses it to convince.

[1:00:47] And then they talk to each other over the gun phone later.

Evan Dorkin

[1:00:51] That's amazing, yeah.

Dan McCoy

[1:00:52] Well, we'll get there.

[1:00:55] All of that goes to pee.

[1:00:56] A shit weasel lunges at his penis.

[1:00:59] He fights it off with fire.

[1:01:02] Tom Jane thinks the snowmobile coming towards him is his friend to rescue him.

[1:01:06] But his psychic link allows him to realize that's not Jonesy.

Evan Dorkin

[1:01:10] I would like to stop you here for a moment because this is an amazing bit of filmmaking.

[1:01:16] So it's actually one of the few times that the psychic thing comes into play.

[1:01:22] And it's a cute bit of business to a degree.

[1:01:25] They move the camera from Thomas Jane to the oncoming snowmobile.

[1:01:30] And he basically goes, that's not Jonesy, which is hilarious.

[1:01:34] And then they pan back.

[1:01:35] And we follow the snowmobile.

[1:01:38] Thomas Jane is gone.

[1:01:40] Okay.

[1:01:41] And he reveals himself to, he's under the snow on the other side of the road.

[1:01:46] And this to me is the greatest scene in the movie.

[1:01:49] Because there are no footprints.

[1:01:51] And there is no impact where he jumped into the snow.

[1:01:54] It's like a fucking Wally Coyote.

[1:01:58] There is no physical evidence of him going over to where he ends up and hiding.

[1:02:03] You cannot just, they don't say that they're telekinetic.

[1:02:08] He is, and these are professional filmmakers with decades of experience.

[1:02:14] And nobody said, hey, hey, Hank, how the fuck did he get over there?

[1:02:17] You know, one of the PAs.

[1:02:19] How did he get over there?

Stuart Wellington

[1:02:20] Add that to the goofs.

[1:02:23] The goofs.

[1:02:25] The goofs overflowing, I would imagine.

Evan Dorkin

[1:02:28] It is amazing.

[1:02:28] But I'm like, he literally just teleports under the snow.

[1:02:32] Yeah.

[1:02:32] And not even where he's standing.

[1:02:34] Well, he probably, he probably does.

Stuart Wellington

[1:02:36] Yeah, he jumps up in the air, clicks his heels, dives under the snow.

[1:02:40] He dives and spins around.

Evan Dorkin

[1:02:42] Yeah, even a Pismo Beach thing.

Stuart Wellington

[1:02:45] The snow, the ground still pops up where he traveled.

[1:02:49] You know, Chuck Jones covered that.

[1:02:51] But he does get in.

[1:02:51] His head stays in one place.

[1:02:53] His body spins around like a top.

[1:02:55] And he drives down like a trail.

Elliott Kalan

[1:02:57] But that does explain why later he shows up in a bullfighting ring.

[1:03:00] And he asks for the Coachella Carrot Festival.

[1:03:03] And, you know, he has to fight that bull.

Evan Dorkin

[1:03:05] It's absolutely like, I didn't catch that the first time.

[1:03:08] But it's obvious.

[1:03:09] But, you know, you're so gobsmacked by everything else.

Dan McCoy

[1:03:12] So, Damien Lewis.

[1:03:15] We're almost done with the movie, right?

[1:03:16] I know.

[1:03:17] Damien Lewis has the task.

[1:03:20] Did any of you actually at one point look up how much left?

Evan Dorkin

[1:03:24] The first time I looked up how much is left, I was only 45 minutes in and I thought I was going to cut my throat with a fork.

Dan McCoy

[1:03:32] I could not fucking believe there was another hour and a half of this shit.

[1:03:36] Well, I had to keep stopping it to take notes.

[1:03:38] So, for Dan, it was like a three-hour movie.

[1:03:41] Yeah, it was unpleasant.

[1:03:42] It feels like it was.

[1:03:44] Damien Lewis has the unenviable task of having to converse with himself between Jonesy and Mr. Gray, the alien who's taking over his body.

[1:03:53] And that's what, of course, Dutt's trying to say.

[1:03:55] Beware Mr. Gray, not Mr. Gay.

[1:03:57] And later on, in totally extraneous dialogue, someone says that.

[1:04:02] Someone realizes, like, oh.

[1:04:03] Oh, yeah.

Stuart Wellington

[1:04:04] They're like, oh, the audience.

[1:04:05] Mr. Gray.

[1:04:06] If they've made it this far.

[1:04:07] Mr. Gay is Mr. Gray.

[1:04:08] If the audience has made it this far, they're idiots.

Elliott Kalan

[1:04:11] Yeah.

[1:04:12] Mr. Gray is also, where does that name come from?

Stuart Wellington

[1:04:15] Because he's a gray alien.

Elliott Kalan

[1:04:17] Does he call himself Mr. Gray?

[1:04:18] No.

[1:04:19] Do they start calling him?

[1:04:19] No.

[1:04:20] I think they just come up with it.

[1:04:21] It just feels like another Stephen King thing where suddenly a bad guy has a name and it doesn't come from him.

[1:04:25] Yeah.

Evan Dorkin

[1:04:26] Morgan Freeman's character calls them grays when he's, like, talking about literally ETs out of the ass and things like that.

[1:04:32] Yeah.

[1:04:33] So they call them grays because they're bait.

[1:04:35] But the funny thing is they don't really look like grays.

[1:04:36] They're not really grays, yeah.

[1:04:38] The only thing – the things you see have these giant bulbous heads.

[1:04:42] They're colored gray.

Dan McCoy

[1:04:43] Yeah.

[1:04:44] When they come out of the red mist thing, it makes no fucking sense.

[1:04:47] And that's supposed to be their, like, nice presentation to not scare people versus the real, like, more lizard-y.

Evan Dorkin

[1:04:55] It looks terrifying.

[1:04:57] Yeah.

[1:04:57] I don't understand.

[1:04:58] Their whole concept falls apart.

Elliott Kalan

[1:05:00] Well, the first grays that came to Earth arrived on Halloween and they thought this was the stuff that we like to see around.

[1:05:05] Yeah.

[1:05:05] Yeah, yeah.

Evan Dorkin

[1:05:05] I mean, the grays are supposed to be those little spindly E.T., you know, close encounters aliens.

Elliott Kalan

[1:05:11] With the big eyes and yeah, yeah.

[1:05:13] Right.

Evan Dorkin

[1:05:13] And the hand signals and, you know, the minimalist music.

[1:05:17] Oh, they love that.

[1:05:18] The Eric Saté.

[1:05:19] They come in with the Eric Saté.

[1:05:21] Is that the thing?

Dan McCoy

[1:05:22] You know.

[1:05:22] Is it possible?

[1:05:22] They came to the planet to find Phil Glass.

[1:05:24] Yeah, do we have Phil Glass as Mr. Different?

[1:05:26] Over and over and over again.

[1:05:28] I just want to note that Mr. Gray talks with a British accent, an English accent.

[1:05:33] And even though Damien Lewis is English, it sounds unconvincing somehow.

[1:05:38] It really sounds Dick Van Dyke.

Elliott Kalan

[1:05:40] He's bouncing between two fake accents the entire time.

Evan Dorkin

[1:05:43] And he changes his facial expressions.

[1:05:46] He's got, like, you know, one mad Batman six face.

[1:05:49] Yeah, he's joker.

Elliott Kalan

[1:05:50] I read that he was basing that on Malcolm McDowell.

[1:05:54] That was his expression.

[1:05:55] But that's who it sounds like.

[1:05:56] Yeah, yeah.

[1:05:57] That's exactly who it sounds like.

[1:05:58] And the facial expressions made sense to me after I read that.

[1:06:01] Yeah, it's a performance now.

[1:06:03] Yeah.

Evan Dorkin

[1:06:04] Yeah.

[1:06:05] Except the problem is it's not Malcolm McDowell of if.

[1:06:08] It's Malcolm McDowell of the substitute.

[1:06:13] Class of 1999, the substitute.

Dan McCoy

[1:06:17] Mr. Gray finds Timothy Oliphant.

[1:06:19] He tortures him until Jonesy, who's trapped inside his mind warehouse, gets him to stop.

Elliott Kalan

[1:06:25] This is – all the mind warehouse stuff here is too – so I don't like it when it's this literal where it's like, hmm, there's information I need from your mind warehouse.

[1:06:32] So he's literally burying it under boxes of other material.

Dan McCoy

[1:06:34] Yeah, later on he's going to burn it.

[1:06:35] I'm like, that's not how it works.

[1:06:37] No.

Evan Dorkin

[1:06:38] No.

[1:06:38] It's a metaphor.

[1:06:39] I've tried to burn things in my mind that it just doesn't take.

[1:06:42] No, yeah.

[1:06:44] I just think about it more and more.

[1:06:47] Oh, that time that I stole a copy of Fantastic Four from my friend Marshall German.

[1:06:52] You have the –

[1:06:52] I'll burn that.

[1:06:53] Well, shit, it's just kind of – the embers are in the rest of my head forever.

[1:06:59] I'll never get rid of it.

[1:06:59] You have the fuel and the heat but not the oxygen to burn it.

[1:07:02] It's so bizarre.

[1:07:03] I mean I can see it working in the book, but I really would never have – I would never – not that I'll ever be in this position.

[1:07:08] I would have absolutely shit-canned that entire – and the monster is running around.

[1:07:13] At times they show the monster running around in his dream warehouse.

[1:07:16] Yeah.

[1:07:18] And the memory warehouse is hilarious too because it's just this like Pirates of the Caribbean looking fake.

[1:07:23] Yeah.

[1:07:24] Yeah, yeah.

[1:07:25] Name the Rose.

[1:07:26] Why would you have to hole in your mind stuff on a –

Elliott Kalan

[1:07:31] It's like in the movie Identity where it's all taking place in one person's head anyway.

[1:07:36] But then they go back and show you how the killer killed each of the other characters when no one was looking.

[1:07:40] It's like, well, they're not real.

[1:07:41] So it doesn't matter.

[1:07:42] Yeah.

[1:07:42] Like just – you could just say it happened.

[1:07:44] You just made it up.

Evan Dorkin

[1:07:44] It's like the idea that you have to spend movie time running through your memory.

[1:07:50] And you're being chased in this like Raiders of the Lost Ark nonsense.

[1:07:54] And then a monster is in your brain.

[1:07:56] It's literally chasing you.

[1:07:57] Like it just – it's just – it's so bad.

[1:08:01] I mean you could – you can see them grappling with how to kind of make this film more interesting.

[1:08:09] Yeah.

[1:08:10] And it never –

Stuart Wellington

[1:08:11] Yeah, this movie about aliens and psychic people, they're like let's juice it up a little bit.

Evan Dorkin

[1:08:15] Yeah, we got to get inside this guy's head and show him –

[1:08:19] Doing some library stuff.

[1:08:20] Yeah, let's see his dark twisted fantasy.

[1:08:22] Library shit.

[1:08:23] Yeah, he – in Doctor Sleep they redo this but it's kind of less awful.

[1:08:28] Yeah.

[1:08:29] Somebody has a memory bank in their head.

Dan McCoy

[1:08:32] I think that they stylized it more which I think makes it more acceptable.

Evan Dorkin

[1:08:37] It looks like it's a better organized memory.

[1:08:42] And it's got – it doesn't have 1950s fixtures and Roy Orbison.

[1:08:46] It's really funny because you can – I didn't want to stop the film and look at it.

[1:08:50] But you can see that they paid people to go through every file and write down –

[1:08:54] I mean somebody is very proud of the fact that when he opens up a file to put the music of Blue Bayou in,

[1:09:01] there's a punk section.

[1:09:02] I did catch that and I was like yeah, I believe that.

[1:09:07] Yeah.

Stuart Wellington

[1:09:07] Yeah, the same guy likes all these things.

[1:09:10] The punk – it's probably like –

[1:09:12] He contains multitudes.

[1:09:12] It's a new wave band and it's the Village Voices punk record.

Dan McCoy

[1:09:18] Gray takes Oliphant with him on the snowmobile briefly because he wants –

[1:09:23] I think he thinks he can help.

[1:09:24] His direction pointing powers.

Evan Dorkin

[1:09:26] Yeah.

[1:09:26] This is the only time that his power is used and it's a good thing that he runs into the guy

[1:09:30] who somehow has the map quest.

[1:09:32] Mm-hmm.

[1:09:33] Like the power.

[1:09:34] And he does it by swirling and then like a toilet bowl appears.

Stuart Wellington

[1:09:37] It's a bad effect.

Evan Dorkin

[1:09:39] It's a bad effect and also it's just so useless.

[1:09:42] I mean it's like why did he get one extra power?

[1:09:46] Why is he the dowsing rod of the TV?

Stuart Wellington

[1:09:48] Right.

Elliott Kalan

[1:09:48] It's possible they all have extra powers but they just don't show up in the movie.

[1:09:52] Like one of them is like you show me a food.

[1:09:54] I can tell you all the calories.

[1:09:55] I don't even need to look it up on the box.

Evan Dorkin

[1:09:57] Yeah.

[1:09:58] But it might have been – I think you're lying.

Dan McCoy

[1:10:02] Thomas Jane makes it back to the cabin.

[1:10:05] He sees blood and red fungus all over.

[1:10:07] He finds dead beef.

[1:10:08] He gets a vision of Mr. Gray possessing Jonesy and he sees the shit weasel laying eggs in the bedroom.

[1:10:16] He blows her away with a shotgun.

[1:10:17] He squashes some babies and he purchases the eggs in the whole cabin.

Elliott Kalan

[1:10:22] It's got to be an homage to Eraserhead, right?

[1:10:25] Yeah.

[1:10:25] Stepping on those little baby weasels.

Dan McCoy

[1:10:28] There's like a scene of like the dream catchers being torched and I'm like, oh no, the dream catcher.

[1:10:33] No.

Evan Dorkin

[1:10:34] You can tell that that was supposed to really catch you in the fields and the whole place actually goes up and you feel nothing.

[1:10:41] You feel absolutely nothing.

Dan McCoy

[1:10:43] Yeah, and they've been going to it for 20 years.

[1:10:45] Flashback, kids making dream catchers.

[1:10:48] They ask Duditz to find a missing girl because he's mysteriously good at finding things.

[1:10:54] They'll put their hands on him and he uses his powers to make them all psychic.

Stuart Wellington

[1:10:57] They form like a little dream catcher with him in the center.

[1:11:00] Yeah.

[1:11:00] Yeah, that was clever.

Dan McCoy

[1:11:01] Yeah.

[1:11:01] And they find the girl in a drainage pipe and they rescue her.

[1:11:05] This really is kind of irrelevant.

Stuart Wellington

[1:11:06] What I love about this sequence is that they're like, oh, she's in this drain pipe.

[1:11:11] And one of the kids lowers in there and then it cuts to just Duditz's face and they're like, hey, she's here.

[1:11:17] And he's just smiling.

[1:11:18] Like we don't even see them find a girl.

Evan Dorkin

[1:11:21] This movie does not want women in this.

[1:11:25] That's actually a fair argument.

[1:11:27] Yeah.

[1:11:27] There are, I think, speaking roles for like four women and none of them go on for more than like two.

[1:11:34] The woman that Plastic Face is hitting on.

[1:11:39] Yeah.

[1:11:39] The girl in the drain pipe, mostly off camera.

[1:11:43] You're getting Duditz's mom at one point.

[1:11:44] Duditz's mom who becomes, seems like a character with gravitas in that scene, but we've never seen her.

[1:11:51] It doesn't matter.

[1:11:52] And some random people who have the disease who say, help me, help me.

[1:11:57] Yeah.

[1:11:58] They couldn't even, there's not even one.

[1:12:00] Farting lady?

[1:12:00] Did we say farting lady?

[1:12:02] Oh, wait, there is the farting lady.

[1:12:03] She has, I think, one line.

[1:12:04] Yeah.

[1:12:05] When she punches him in the nuts.

[1:12:06] Farts herself.

[1:12:08] I forgot.

[1:12:08] There's a thing about, you know, there's this Kevin Smith pass on the script that fucked everything up.

[1:12:14] But yeah, it's an incredibly male film.

[1:12:18] I mean, the army has, there are no, I believe there were women in the military in 2023.

Dan McCoy

[1:12:24] I've heard rumors of them.

[1:12:25] In 2003.

[1:12:26] Yeah.

[1:12:27] You know?

[1:12:28] But it's weird.

Elliott Kalan

[1:12:30] Yeah.

[1:12:30] Well, because it has such a, it's so much about male friendship.

[1:12:33] Male bonding it.

[1:12:34] Yeah.

Evan Dorkin

[1:12:34] And nut punching.

[1:12:36] All that being said.

[1:12:37] The need for toothpicks.

[1:12:38] All that being said.

[1:12:39] The guys actually sound slightly misogynistic when they do, in their band.

[1:12:44] Oh, more than slightly.

[1:12:46] You know, well, I was giving it the benefit.

[1:12:47] You're being charitable.

Dan McCoy

[1:12:48] Yeah.

[1:12:49] All that being said, though, I mean, we still could cut this straight-ish pipe girl.

[1:12:53] Because all it tells us, like, we already knew that Duditz gave them all psychic powers.

[1:12:58] We don't need to show them going on like a little mini-adventure with their kids.

Stuart Wellington

[1:13:01] Two seconds when they're having dinner in the cabin, they go, remember when Duditz gave

[1:13:04] us those powers?

[1:13:05] And they're like, yeah, that was crazy.

[1:13:06] Okay.

[1:13:07] Move on.

Evan Dorkin

[1:13:07] And the thing is, when they get the powers, they just basically shrug and run off.

[1:13:11] Literally.

[1:13:11] They just shrug and run off.

[1:13:12] They have psychic powers.

[1:13:13] One of them makes the toilet swirling thing.

[1:13:15] Uh-huh.

[1:13:16] And everybody goes, neat.

[1:13:18] And it's funny also because they lower the little guy.

[1:13:20] They lower Beaver, who's a little tiny thing.

[1:13:21] The one who's probably going to be least able to get out.

[1:13:23] Maybe there's a power magic scene.

[1:13:24] It physically doesn't look like they could save her that way.

[1:13:29] And then he'd be stuck down there with her.

[1:13:32] It's a wonderful, wonderful, heartwarming scene of old Americana.

Stuart Wellington

[1:13:35] And I feel if there's any grouping of people who would love to have their minds able to

[1:13:42] be read by their friends, it's teenage boys.

[1:13:44] Yeah.

[1:13:45] Yeah.

Dan McCoy

[1:13:45] Fuckery, fuckaroo, criminal.

[1:13:48] God.

[1:13:48] Back in the present, we get another sequence that I would argue is unnecessary where some

[1:13:52] hot helicopters bomb the shit out of the crashed ship.

[1:13:55] Well, luckily it also looks bad.

[1:13:57] Oh, boy.

Evan Dorkin

[1:13:58] It really does.

[1:13:59] It really does look like House of the Dead, early House of the Dead coin-op game.

Elliott Kalan

[1:14:03] And I found this scene really confusing because the aliens are sending the telepathic messages

[1:14:07] saying, help us.

[1:14:09] We need help.

[1:14:09] We're fine.

[1:14:10] And Morgan Freeman's like, you hear that?

[1:14:12] They're sending lies into our brains.

[1:14:14] Blow them up, boys.

[1:14:15] But Morgan Freeman has already been established as an insane man.

[1:14:17] Yeah.

[1:14:18] So I was like, is the movie making the point that actually they're misunderstanding what's

[1:14:22] going on with the aliens?

[1:14:23] But no, it turns out not.

[1:14:24] It's just – but this whole – again, this whole scene could be – if it wasn't the

[1:14:27] most expensive scene, probably the movie.

Evan Dorkin

[1:14:29] Yeah, it's a budget buster scene to put some big action into it.

[1:14:33] Yeah.

[1:14:34] And it's – also, this is where you get to see the scope of the enemy.

[1:14:39] And a ship that is the size of a giant cruise ship.

[1:14:45] These guys were not parachuting out of a ship into – and it crashed.

[1:14:52] And somehow nobody has found it on radar.

[1:14:55] Yeah.

Stuart Wellington

[1:14:56] Nobody has seen this happen outside Maine.

[1:14:59] I would imagine a – like a meteor of this size would be a planet-ending event.

Evan Dorkin

[1:15:04] Yeah.

[1:15:04] It would be a big deal.

[1:15:06] And the aliens with all their technology –

[1:15:08] Get the world's best deep core drillers up there and break that thing apart, right?

[1:15:12] Yeah, sure.

[1:15:12] The aliens come out of the ship and their play is to just jump up and down like they're

[1:15:18] at a rave and say, you know, hi, we're nice people.

[1:15:23] How does that even work?

[1:15:24] Because you don't ever see them as anything that a human being – you know, a human being

[1:15:30] would go, hey, they could project themselves as cuddly teddy bears or Pokemon or – I

[1:15:38] can't remember.

[1:15:38] Tinky Wink and all those.

Stuart Wellington

[1:15:39] Yeah, like which Pokemon's like Mewtwo or –

[1:15:44] Probably not.

[1:15:45] If they were a bunch of people.

[1:15:46] Snorlax.

[1:15:46] Not something that powerful.

Evan Dorkin

[1:15:47] If they turned themselves into a group of Pikachus, a lot of people would run over to them and hug

[1:15:53] them.

[1:15:54] Yeah.

[1:15:54] They just look like garbage.

[1:15:57] They're just these gray –

[1:15:59] No, it's true.

Stuart Wellington

[1:16:00] They don't even look like anything.

[1:16:01] They're going to choose an alien.

[1:16:02] The weird thing is that when they – there's a moment that when they start getting fired

[1:16:06] on, they spin around and they kind of revert to their like snake form.

[1:16:11] But it doesn't look that much visually distinct from their nice form, if that makes sense.

Evan Dorkin

[1:16:17] They're sort of like these space doughboys, these popping fresh doughboys jumping up and

[1:16:22] down.

[1:16:23] I mean, it's really an embarrassing scene on – and the effects are terrible.

[1:16:27] And it's – they send their crack four helicopters because this is so important.

[1:16:31] We see that they –

[1:16:32] Because two have to get blown up so that our hero helicopters can get away.

Stuart Wellington

[1:16:34] You know that you have to lose the idiots.

[1:16:36] Right.

[1:16:36] You have to lose a couple of Porkins.

[1:16:39] I mean, that's – and it's also like a really big ship for these three or four helicopters

[1:16:44] to do anything about.

[1:16:45] It's massive.

[1:16:46] It's an ID-4 kind of ship.

Evan Dorkin

[1:16:48] Yeah.

[1:16:49] And it blows up very easily.

[1:16:51] It has no defenses apparently.

Stuart Wellington

[1:16:53] They have no –

[1:16:54] But it's – they self-destruct to try and, I don't know, kill these four tiny helicopters.

Elliott Kalan

[1:16:57] I think that's their only – their only plan is to – I guess to kill the helicopters

[1:17:00] is to destroy all of themselves.

[1:17:02] Right.

[1:17:02] Yeah.

[1:17:02] Self-destruct.

Evan Dorkin

[1:17:02] They've never invented a gun.

[1:17:05] Maybe not.

Elliott Kalan

[1:17:06] Because they've been really good at just throwing their weasel babies.

Evan Dorkin

[1:17:08] All they have is –

[1:17:09] If you have weasel babies –

[1:17:11] All they have is special pleading.

[1:17:14] Yeah.

[1:17:14] That's all they have.

[1:17:16] They just have this like – they get these like watery eyes and they look up at you and

[1:17:20] you go – and they're still an ugly alien.

[1:17:22] They go, please help us.

Stuart Wellington

[1:17:23] But then you get close and then you get weasel babied.

[1:17:26] That's actually –

[1:17:27] I'd like to see a Western where instead of six guns, there's throwing weasel babies.

[1:17:31] There's throwing weasel babies.

Evan Dorkin

[1:17:31] I also love the idea that they've done so little research in the 25 years that they've been

[1:17:36] trying to invade the earth that they don't realize that humans are shit and don't want

[1:17:40] to help anyone.

[1:17:42] Their whole idea –

[1:17:43] Help us.

[1:17:44] Fuck you.

Elliott Kalan

[1:17:45] We will simply go.

[1:17:47] We will play upon the sympathy they hold for all living creatures.

[1:17:50] Sounds good, Cree Blacks.

[1:17:51] Yes.

[1:17:52] Tell me more.

Evan Dorkin

[1:17:55] We won't wear clothes.

[1:17:57] We'll just be these naked little mud hippies.

[1:18:00] Space mud hippies.

[1:18:01] And then we'll turn into these –

Elliott Kalan

[1:18:02] All their research was they read the comic strip Love Is and that was all the research

[1:18:06] they did.

[1:18:06] Yeah.

Evan Dorkin

[1:18:07] That and a little ziggy.

[1:18:10] These are dumb fucking aliens, man.

Dan McCoy

[1:18:13] They really, really are.

[1:18:15] Timothy Oliphant won't tell Mr. Gray about Duditz.

[1:18:18] So Gray eats him.

[1:18:20] We've narrowed our focus.

[1:18:21] We're down to only two characters.

[1:18:24] That's the classic fight my bag scene, right?

[1:18:25] It's an amazing scene too.

Evan Dorkin

[1:18:27] It just does not care about its own characters.

[1:18:31] Yeah.

Elliott Kalan

[1:18:31] Also one of those times where it's like, that seems like a useful power to just be able to

[1:18:35] eat a whole person.

[1:18:36] I don't know why he doesn't do that again.

Evan Dorkin

[1:18:37] He just turns around.

[1:18:37] Yeah.

[1:18:37] But – and that's it.

[1:18:39] Your character is going – which I was glad.

[1:18:41] I'm very happy when the characters leave this movie.

[1:18:43] Uh-huh.

[1:18:44] You know, I was so excited that Beaver was the first one to go because it was horrible.

[1:18:48] Yeah.

Stuart Wellington

[1:18:49] He had the most – yeah, he had the most quips.

[1:18:51] When a guy was talking to himself in a British accent –

Dan McCoy

[1:18:55] That's – that's like adding another character though.

Evan Dorkin

[1:18:58] He's not the one.

[1:18:59] He's worth two.

[1:19:00] You're rooting for him to stay around longer.

[1:19:03] You know you hate the characters.

Elliott Kalan

[1:19:05] Beaver has big kid in the wheelchair from Texas Chainsaw Massacre where you're like,

[1:19:09] I don't want the heroes to die, but this kid, we can probably get rid of her pretty soon,

[1:19:14] right?

[1:19:14] Yeah.

[1:19:15] He's such an unglamorous death.

Dan McCoy

[1:19:17] It's an undramatic death.

[1:19:19] Yeah.

[1:19:20] Gray grabs a truck.

[1:19:22] He's trying to spread the infection beyond the quarantine.

[1:19:25] He notices that Jonesy is up to something in his memory warehouse.

[1:19:27] This is where the burning of Duditz memories happens.

Elliott Kalan

[1:19:32] Thomas James –

[1:19:33] So he should not remember Duditz when he sees him.

[1:19:35] You're right.

[1:19:36] He's burned those – so when Duditz shows up, he should be like, who is this?

[1:19:39] What are you doing?

[1:19:40] But –

[1:19:41] You're asking to tell the ghost of William Goldman.

[1:19:43] It's fucking Donnie Wahlberg.

[1:19:44] That's who it is.

[1:19:45] He just looks crazy.

[1:19:46] I got to meet William Goldman once very briefly.

[1:19:48] Yeah?

[1:19:49] But I had not seen this movie yet, so I didn't get to ask him about it.

Dan McCoy

[1:19:51] You would have barked his shins with, right?

[1:19:55] No, no.

[1:19:56] Princess Bride buys him a few Dreamcatchers.

Evan Dorkin

[1:19:59] I'm one of the few people on earth who still hasn't seen that, so I don't have the –

[1:20:02] Oh.

[1:20:03] I know.

[1:20:03] I'm a terrible –

Dan McCoy

[1:20:03] I also grew up reading the book.

[1:20:05] I actually read the book before the movie.

Evan Dorkin

[1:20:07] I've seen Dreamcatcher twice.

[1:20:08] I have not seen Billy the Kid.

[1:20:10] I have not seen –

[1:20:11] Butch Cassidy, you mean?

[1:20:12] Butch Cassidy, sorry.

[1:20:14] I think I have seen Billy the Kid, but he was fighting Dracula at the time.

[1:20:17] But I have not seen the William Goldman hits, I don't believe.

Elliott Kalan

[1:20:20] Have you seen Magic, the ventriloquism movie?

[1:20:22] No, I have not.

Evan Dorkin

[1:20:23] I have not seen Magic.

[1:20:25] I don't.

Elliott Kalan

[1:20:26] Did he write that?

[1:20:27] He wrote the book and the movie.

[1:20:28] I think he wrote the movie.

[1:20:29] He wrote the book at Space Mon.

[1:20:30] That's one where I found out after seeing it that they wanted Gene Wilder to play that role.

[1:20:34] I'm like, oh, what a better movie that would have been.

[1:20:35] That would have been fantastic.

[1:20:37] Yeah.

[1:20:37] As a mean –

Dan McCoy

[1:20:37] And he adapted – he did Misery, so he did the good Stephen King.

[1:20:40] I haven't seen Misery.

[1:20:42] I've seen garbage films.

[1:20:43] I've only seen garbage.

Stuart Wellington

[1:20:45] I saw Dreamcatcher.

[1:20:47] Misery.

[1:20:47] Every author's fantasy.

[1:20:50] A fan likes your book so much.

[1:20:51] I did read that book.

[1:20:52] I did read the book, though, and I remember liking it.

[1:20:54] But, yeah.

Dan McCoy

[1:20:55] Thomas Jane's trying to get out of quarantine by cross-country ski, and he's stopped by army dudes.

[1:21:02] He gets pulled into the quarantine zone.

[1:21:05] He reads Morgan Freeman's mind as, like, Freeman is monologuing at Tom Sizemore.

[1:21:11] He's, like, being like, fuck your studies that show that we don't have to kill all these people, you know.

[1:21:18] The fight against aliens has driven him mad.

[1:21:20] He says he'll kill Americans if he has to.

Elliott Kalan

[1:21:23] Thomas Jane does not take the opportunity to use his psychic powers to stop Morgan Freeman from killing all these people.

[1:21:30] He decides to go after Tom Sizemore.

[1:21:32] They don't really seem to use them at all.

Dan McCoy

[1:21:34] Well, I don't know whether they can do, like, brain fighting or whether they can just read.

[1:21:37] Oh, wait.

[1:21:38] They can do psychic battles?

[1:21:39] Yeah, well, that's what I'm saying.

Elliott Kalan

[1:21:40] That's what Dan just said is he knows for a fact they can do psychic battles.

[1:21:43] No, he can't do it.

[1:21:44] Guys.

[1:21:44] Guys, it's like, you can't hear me.

Stuart Wellington

[1:21:45] It feels like he underutilizes psychic battles.

Elliott Kalan

[1:21:47] Guys, is our psychic link dissolving?

[1:21:49] Dan said, he said, and I quote, I dot, dot, dot, know if they can use psychic battles.

Stuart Wellington

[1:21:55] Because he probably has a fetter that allows him to summon a psychic saber.

[1:21:59] And that psychic saber is going to pierce through Tom Sizemore's psychic shield abilities.

[1:22:04] Oh, yeah.

[1:22:04] Because he only has a level three psychic shield.

[1:22:06] We're getting into psion.

Evan Dorkin

[1:22:07] I never used psionics in our D&D game.

[1:22:10] Oh, man.

[1:22:10] You're missing out.

[1:22:11] What adventures could we have?

[1:22:13] Mind flayer bullshit.

Elliott Kalan

[1:22:14] If only Thomas Jane had focused the totality of his psychic abilities into, say, like a side blade that came out of his fist.

Evan Dorkin

[1:22:22] It would have been cooler if the four guys were fire starters.

[1:22:25] At least there would have been something like, you know, super fire starters.

[1:22:29] Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

Dan McCoy

[1:22:32] No, but he doesn't do anything.

[1:22:34] I was about to sing the song, but boy, I can't say it.

[1:22:36] I was born.

[1:22:39] Yeah, instead of targeting Freeman, Thomas Jane accosts Tom Sizemore, uses his psychic info to encourage him to do the right thing.

[1:22:51] Great movie.

Elliott Kalan

[1:22:51] It's a classic, like, I'm telling you things about yourself I would only know if I could read your mind.

Evan Dorkin

[1:22:55] Tom Sizemore takes this in stride just like everybody.

[1:22:58] He takes this in stride like wise.

[1:23:00] This is a post-psychic America.

[1:23:01] This is everyone in America is just waiting for psychics to show up.

Stuart Wellington

[1:23:05] It would have made sense if, like, instead –

[1:23:08] because he's always, like, looking at a picture of somebody.

[1:23:11] And I think he should have been looking at his, like, big book of psychic phenomena that he's like, oh.

[1:23:16] Yes, the time life book.

[1:23:17] My guiding moonlight.

[1:23:18] You've been with me always.

Dan McCoy

[1:23:19] I guess he's seen so much weird shit at this point.

[1:23:21] He's like, yeah, sure, whatever.

[1:23:22] But he does have, like, the same, like, look of, like –

[1:23:24] He's just like I just blew up a bunch of aliens today.

[1:23:26] Sure, you're psychic.

[1:23:27] Whatever, man.

Evan Dorkin

[1:23:28] Sizemore is a rock in this film in a good sense.

[1:23:32] I mean, he just –

[1:23:34] actually, everybody in this movie feels stunned that they had to come back to work the next –

[1:23:37] Nobody looks happy to be in this film or, like, they're having a good time being –

[1:23:42] Morgan Freeman looks pissed.

[1:23:44] He really does.

[1:23:45] He really looks – he honestly looks unhappy.

Dan McCoy

[1:23:47] Yeah.

[1:23:47] I do like that they cast against type there.

[1:23:51] They made Freeman, like, the crazy guy.

[1:23:54] And Tom Sizemore is the guy that you think is going to be evil because he's Tom Sizemore.

[1:23:58] But he's very reasonable.

Evan Dorkin

[1:23:59] It's true because it was an interesting decision.

[1:24:01] It really increased the boredom.

[1:24:05] It really turned it off.

[1:24:07] You know what I mean?

[1:24:07] It was just like when John Belushi and Dan Aykroyd in Neighbors, you know?

[1:24:11] You didn't get anything you wanted, but it was an interesting decision.

Dan McCoy

[1:24:14] The biggest problem I have with this, honestly, is that, like, Tom Sizemore isn't just like, oh, you've got psychic powers.

[1:24:20] You're an alien.

[1:24:21] I'm going to shoot you rather than, like, just going along with it.

[1:24:23] I'm going to haul you into the truck of alien knowledge.

[1:24:28] I have no idea what I'm saying, by the way.

[1:24:31] Instead, though, he convinces him to get Morgan Freeman's superior, General Matheson, to assume command.

[1:24:37] He busts Thomas Jane out.

[1:24:38] They drive into the storm.

[1:24:40] And he answers a phone call from Jonesy by putting Tom Sizemore's handgun up to his head.

[1:24:47] And Tom Sizemore still believes Thomas Jane after that.

Elliott Kalan

[1:24:51] This is good writing.

[1:24:52] At the beginning of the movie, he put a gun to his head as an act of self-destruction.

[1:24:56] Now he's putting a gun to his head as an act of global preservation.

[1:25:00] That's why they pay William Goldman a lot of money to do that kind of stuff.

Evan Dorkin

[1:25:02] I think he also literally says, I wish that I could call Jonesy.

[1:25:06] I believe it is prompted by it.

[1:25:08] So that kind of derails the good writing.

[1:25:10] It kind of, you know, anti-matter matter.

[1:25:14] It's just, boy, I wish I could call him.

[1:25:16] Your phone, your gun is ringing.

Elliott Kalan

[1:25:17] And I forget, did Jonesy, like, did Mr. Gray go to the bathroom in the memory palace?

[1:25:22] I don't know.

[1:25:22] I saw Jonesy get a call out.

[1:25:24] Yeah, yeah, that's probably what happened.

[1:25:25] I don't know how to do something.

[1:25:26] Don't call anybody.

Dan McCoy

[1:25:27] Maybe the closer they get to Dutt, it's like the, you know, like the phone lines get better,

[1:25:31] essentially.

[1:25:32] But I, yeah, Tom Sizemore, I can't believe, like, he looks at him, Jonesy, like he's crazy,

[1:25:39] but also like, I'll allow it.

Evan Dorkin

[1:25:40] And he actually says, give me the gun back, which is silly because he already took the

[1:25:44] bullets out of it.

[1:25:45] So it kind of derails the joke.

[1:25:47] But this is the first use of Chekhov's phone.

[1:25:52] So that's incredible.

Stuart Wellington

[1:25:53] Put that on the trivia.

[1:25:55] And an exciting feature of this gun is in addition to functioning as a phone, it also has like

[1:26:00] an Apple AirTag in it.

[1:26:01] Yeah, there's cracking.

Evan Dorkin

[1:26:03] That's how Morgan Freeman is able to complete his job of saving the world by hunting time

[1:26:09] size one.

[1:26:12] They go to, anyway, these guys go to Dutt.

Dan McCoy

[1:26:15] He's nuts.

[1:26:15] He's really nuts.

[1:26:16] No, really, like he shows up at the end.

[1:26:18] He's like, seems to have totally forgotten his mission.

Elliott Kalan

[1:26:21] Well, he's been relieved of his mission too.

[1:26:23] So he's mad that he was, I could see it as a personal event.

[1:26:26] This time it's personal.

[1:26:27] This time it's personal.

Evan Dorkin

[1:26:27] They left him in his high-tech Nick Fury wagon.

[1:26:30] It's very funny.

Elliott Kalan

[1:26:32] So they're like, you got to call in this other army guy.

[1:26:35] And the army guy comes in, we're taking over this operation now.

[1:26:37] And he's very reasonable.

Stuart Wellington

[1:26:39] He's the nicest army man you could want.

Elliott Kalan

[1:26:41] He's so nice.

[1:26:42] He's like, so General Insane Morgan Freeman, anything you want to tell us?

[1:26:47] Nope.

[1:26:47] I'm fine.

[1:26:48] Just give me another couple minutes inside my room with all my machines that do all my

[1:26:52] things for me.

[1:26:53] My spying devices?

[1:26:55] Some of these guys say that there's some machine work going on in here.

[1:26:58] He's like, nope, I don't think so.

Stuart Wellington

[1:26:59] That's just my Domino's pizza tracker working overtime.

Evan Dorkin

[1:27:02] Now, here's the thing.

[1:27:03] Kill aliens works up an appetite.

[1:27:04] This is from 2003 where we didn't believe these things of the army.

[1:27:07] But if it was made now, we, right?

[1:27:10] I mean, they're kind of like overseeing.

[1:27:12] You'd believe that our American military is capable of any stupid fucking thing.

Dan McCoy

[1:27:16] If it was made now, I'd be like, there's too many nice people in this movie.

[1:27:19] Yeah, exactly.

[1:27:21] Everybody should be a Tom Sizemore on 11.

Elliott Kalan

[1:27:23] I do believe this movie more if it is Trump and Hegseth calling the shots.

[1:27:28] Yeah.

[1:27:28] And they're like, yeah, yeah.

[1:27:29] Blow up to town in Maine.

[1:27:30] Whatever.

[1:27:31] I don't know.

[1:27:31] Go after those guys.

[1:27:32] I don't know.

[1:27:33] Like it.

[1:27:33] Yeah, I do believe that.

[1:27:34] Yeah.

Dan McCoy

[1:27:35] So they go to Derry to pick up adult duditz.

[1:27:39] It was played by Donnie Wahlberg.

[1:27:41] Oh, my God.

[1:27:42] What a coup.

[1:27:42] What a casting coup.

Stuart Wellington

[1:27:44] Well, that's the thing.

[1:27:45] They're like, hey, Donnie, just to let you know, the water supply for the city of Boston

[1:27:50] is in danger.

[1:27:50] And he's like, I'm in.

Evan Dorkin

[1:27:52] Son of a bitch, you got me.

[1:27:54] That's it.

[1:27:54] I'm going to play some Dropkick Murphys.

Stuart Wellington

[1:27:57] That water powers my Wahlbergers restaurants.

[1:28:00] That's right.

Evan Dorkin

[1:28:01] But you also, you're dressed like Walter Matthau in that movie about survivalists.

[1:28:07] And you have time syndrome.

[1:28:09] You're also possibly not human.

[1:28:12] Yeah.

[1:28:12] And this script is terrible.

Elliott Kalan

[1:28:14] He's like, yeah, but I get to dangle a stuffed animal from my hand and carry a lunchtime.

[1:28:19] Yes, you do.

Evan Dorkin

[1:28:19] You get to say the most important line in the movie.

[1:28:26] And you got to wear these depends.

[1:28:28] We got to do a lot of character work here.

[1:28:31] Well, Donnie Wahlberg.

[1:28:32] Well, he was, that's true.

Elliott Kalan

[1:28:33] When he was on set, he was just Duditz.

[1:28:34] He would only answer to Duditz.

[1:28:35] Yeah.

Evan Dorkin

[1:28:36] If you called him Donnie, he would get mad.

[1:28:37] And we get to meet, we get to meet Duditz's mother, who you think would be an interesting

[1:28:41] character though, but we don't meet anybody's parents really.

[1:28:43] We don't know anything about those kids.

Elliott Kalan

[1:28:45] Those kids, I assume all, except for Duditz, they all live in a house together.

[1:28:48] They have no parents.

[1:28:49] They live in a tree house.

[1:28:50] They live in a high house.

[1:28:51] A tree house.

[1:28:52] Shit.

[1:28:54] Sorry.

[1:28:55] They all have sleep car, they all sleep in race car bunk beds.

Stuart Wellington

[1:28:58] Yeah.

[1:28:59] Duditz's mom is like, damn, you can take this kid off my hands.

Elliott Kalan

[1:29:04] She's like, Duditz.

Dan McCoy

[1:29:05] She's like, go save the world.

[1:29:06] And she seems to know that she's not going to see him again too.

Elliott Kalan

[1:29:08] She goes, Duditz was so happy when you were showing up that now he'll die happy.

[1:29:13] So please take him off my hand.

[1:29:14] And he's got leukemia.

Dan McCoy

[1:29:16] He's got leukemia.

[1:29:17] Yeah.

[1:29:17] He carries his meds in the Scooby-Doo lunchbox now.

[1:29:20] It's been repurposed.

[1:29:21] What does leukemia add to this?

Stuart Wellington

[1:29:23] When the later reveal happens, it feels strange.

Dan McCoy

[1:29:29] Unlike the rest of the movie.

[1:29:30] That's an understatement.

[1:29:32] Yeah.

Evan Dorkin

[1:29:33] So Duditz, Loki's Mr. Grey, psychically.

[1:29:36] This character is just thrust on you with all the importance of the mouse droid in the first Star Wars movie.

[1:29:42] I mean, it's just a – are we supposed to care about this?

[1:29:47] Yeah.

[1:29:47] His mother basically does a via con dia.

[1:29:50] She's like, thank God.

[1:29:51] I'm getting drunk.

[1:29:52] I'm going to bingo.

[1:29:54] Yeah.

[1:29:55] It's unbelievable.

[1:29:57] Like, how could – why have they not been in touch with him?

Elliott Kalan

[1:29:59] Yeah, that wasn't something I thought was – they talk about him all the time.

Dan McCoy

[1:30:01] They talk about him as if he's dead already.

Elliott Kalan

[1:30:04] And they kept saying we're going up to the cabin to see Duditz.

[1:30:06] And it's like, well, Duditz isn't at the cabin.

[1:30:08] So I don't understand what –

Evan Dorkin

[1:30:09] He's like the most important thing in their lives.

[1:30:11] He's all they're talking about.

[1:30:12] He gave them these great, not-so-great psychic powers.

[1:30:16] One of them can find car keys, and they don't even –

[1:30:19] I mean, in many ways –

Elliott Kalan

[1:30:20] They don't even call him up.

[1:30:21] In many ways, it's a story about children and their parents.

[1:30:24] You know, they give us everything, and yet we forget about them.

Dan McCoy

[1:30:26] I thought you were going to say, in many ways, finding your keys is the most useful psychic power.

Evan Dorkin

[1:30:30] I mean, it is a really useful psychic power.

[1:30:32] I think – he never finds anything else, though.

[1:30:35] No.

[1:30:36] He finds a –

[1:30:36] He finds a date.

[1:30:38] He just finds a worm on his dingus, yeah.

[1:30:41] This was all started by a guy who had to have a toothpick.

[1:30:45] That fucking beef.

[1:30:46] It was so –

[1:30:47] But you got to admit, that whole scene, right?

[1:30:49] The way they kept cutting toothpick him.

[1:30:51] Hitchcockian.

[1:30:52] Wow.

[1:30:52] Yeah.

[1:30:53] That was so Hitchcockian.

Elliott Kalan

[1:30:54] I mean, I also – it's also strange that earlier it's like we can't let this thing out of the toilet.

[1:30:59] The alien's whole plan is to get into the reservoir, right?

[1:31:01] So you know what's connected to water?

[1:31:03] Pipes.

[1:31:04] Shh, shh, shh.

[1:31:04] Elliot.

Evan Dorkin

[1:31:06] We're trying to enjoy Dreamcatcher.

[1:31:07] I mean, that's a psychic tank.

[1:31:08] Please, let me have my fun.

Stuart Wellington

[1:31:09] We're trying to enjoy Dreamcatcher here.

Evan Dorkin

[1:31:11] There's a thing called oceans.

[1:31:13] There's these fucking things called oceans and rivers.

[1:31:17] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Stuart Wellington

[1:31:18] You think the groundwater supply eventually –

Evan Dorkin

[1:31:20] But is it 75% of the earth is water?

Stuart Wellington

[1:31:23] Well, that is the whole fucking M. Night Shyamalan science argument.

Evan Dorkin

[1:31:27] Any one of us can go out and end the world with their worm tomorrow.

[1:31:32] We just go out.

Stuart Wellington

[1:31:32] I've got a reservoir a mile from here.

[1:31:34] I walk over.

[1:31:35] I've been trying to end the world with my worm for years.

[1:31:37] Stuart does have a good point, though.

Dan McCoy

[1:31:38] It can just fly over Lake Erie.

[1:31:41] Yeah.

[1:31:42] If the toilet emptied directly into the reservoir, you would have other problems.

Elliott Kalan

[1:31:46] No, no.

[1:31:47] But you could get through there.

[1:31:50] Un-fucking-believable.

[1:31:51] It's true.

Dan McCoy

[1:31:51] You don't want your toilets to go into the reservoir.

[1:31:53] That's a good point.

Evan Dorkin

[1:31:54] Yeah.

[1:31:54] Anyway.

[1:31:55] And they were probably making fun of the Martians from War of the Worlds for not testing the air first.

Stuart Wellington

[1:31:59] It was like when the Dave Manthies band emptied their tour bus toilets in the Chicago River.

Evan Dorkin

[1:32:04] They did more damage to the earth than these fucking aliens on another planet did.

Stuart Wellington

[1:32:09] Yeah, I mean, they should have – who knows?

[1:32:10] Maybe there's Mr. Gray hiding in Dave Manthies band.

[1:32:14] That would explain a lot.

[1:32:16] Well, we've talked about it a lot already.

[1:32:17] What would you say to that, Dan?

Dan McCoy

[1:32:19] We've talked about it a lot already.

[1:32:21] Dunnitz has psychically located Gray.

[1:32:22] He is going to the reservoir where just a single worm in the water supply would kill the world.

[1:32:28] They're in a dog also at this point.

[1:32:31] The worms are in a dog.

[1:32:32] Yeah.

Elliott Kalan

[1:32:32] They're driving in a car and the car gets a flat tire, so they've got to get out of the car, right?

[1:32:37] And I was reading – I think in the book the heroes do something that stymies him.

[1:32:42] But here it's just –

Dan McCoy

[1:32:43] Yeah.

[1:32:43] Everybody crashes their car whenever they need to.

[1:32:46] Yeah.

[1:32:47] I read the Wikipedia, yes.

[1:32:49] This is another bizarre thing from the book indicating that maybe William Goldman did make some good choices along the way, which was Dudditz implants a hunger for raw bacon in Mr. Gray's brain.

[1:33:04] And Mr. Jonesy's human body gets so sick by this that it slows down the progression to the reservoir.

Elliott Kalan

[1:33:10] For the listeners who can't see what we're seeing right now, it looks like Evan is experiencing actual pain on hearing this.

Dan McCoy

[1:33:16] You've got to be kidding me.

[1:33:18] This is what the wiki said.

[1:33:20] You've got to be kidding me.

[1:33:21] Well, they're wrong sometimes.

Evan Dorkin

[1:33:22] I'm hoping they're wrong.

[1:33:23] Yeah.

[1:33:24] He gets a lust for bacon and it slows him down.

Stuart Wellington

[1:33:26] I mean I imagine whatever pain meds Stephen King was on were bonkers.

[1:33:31] But that's Warner Brothers plotting.

[1:33:34] You know, I've got to have some bacon.

Dan McCoy

[1:33:36] You know, it's like a Dick Tracy villain.

[1:33:39] You know, like Bacon Boy.

[1:33:40] I love bacon.

[1:33:41] Yeah, he floats on the – wafting on the scent of raw bacon.

[1:33:45] Yeah.

[1:33:46] Oh, my God.

[1:33:47] That's –

Elliott Kalan

[1:33:47] They put the bacon under a box and when he gets to it, they pull the string and the box falls on him.

Dan McCoy

[1:33:52] Yeah, the stick is holding the box.

[1:33:54] You see someone else turning into a package of raw bacon.

Stuart Wellington

[1:33:57] I mean based on the references, I feel like old-timey cartoons fit the themes.

Evan Dorkin

[1:34:02] Yes.

[1:34:02] Might have been an inspiration here while he was tripping on Oxycontin.

Dan McCoy

[1:34:07] At the reservoir, Gray carries this infected dog full of worms.

Stuart Wellington

[1:34:13] Which is horrible.

[1:34:14] I do like that this sequence, they really take the time to have him walk up to the door, find that it's locked, put the dog down, find a rock,

[1:34:22] like blast through the window with the rock.

[1:34:24] Also –

[1:34:25] You don't need to take all this time.

[1:34:26] So he has to go to this fucking –

[1:34:28] He was having a Baconator dream.

Evan Dorkin

[1:34:31] Baconator dreams were like going through his head and shit.

[1:34:34] He was all – also, he was really messed up.

[1:34:36] I didn't quite get why.

Elliott Kalan

[1:34:38] I think there must have been something that they cut out.

Evan Dorkin

[1:34:42] Jonesy seemed to be addled constantly, like physically.

[1:34:45] Maybe it's the bacon.

Dan McCoy

[1:34:46] Maybe they cut the bacon.

[1:34:47] They got the gout real fast.

[1:34:49] You know?

[1:34:50] But I think it's – like he spent so much time getting into this building, like trying to pry up a manhole.

[1:34:55] I'm like, why aren't you taking it to the water line?

[1:34:58] Like why does it have to go down?

Evan Dorkin

[1:35:00] You can see water when he gets to the rest of the water.

Elliott Kalan

[1:35:02] There's water in the background.

[1:35:03] But that's the place that – because it says alien worms here.

[1:35:06] Oh, man.

[1:35:07] Right on that.

[1:35:08] It's really uptight.

Evan Dorkin

[1:35:09] It's like rollable.

[1:35:10] He doesn't get the point unless he jams it in the hole.

[1:35:13] Don't ask me why that means.

Dan McCoy

[1:35:16] Our heroes have arrived.

[1:35:19] Sizemore tells Thomas Jane and does to stay in the car.

[1:35:22] He tries to sneak up on Mr. Gray with his automatic rifle.

[1:35:24] And he says goodbye.

[1:35:25] He says goodbye.

[1:35:26] It's like he knows what – he read the script.

Evan Dorkin

[1:35:28] He seems to know that this may be his rest.

[1:35:29] It's a really strange moment because it doesn't seem like –

[1:35:32] Rodeo.

[1:35:32] It was shoot this guy.

[1:35:33] Yeah.

Dan McCoy

[1:35:34] Well, he can't because he's thwarted by Morgan Freeman in a helicopter who strafes him.

Elliott Kalan

[1:35:39] This scene – I thought this was so funny.

[1:35:41] Morgan Freeman and Tom Swarov essentially kill each other.

[1:35:44] And I'm like, well, don't know what the point of them being in this part of the movie was.

[1:35:47] Exactly.

Evan Dorkin

[1:35:48] There's no point – it turns out there's really no point in them being in the movie at all.

[1:35:51] Yeah.

[1:35:51] They're movies on a separate track practically.

[1:35:54] Yeah.

Elliott Kalan

[1:35:54] But there's never been a movie about people in a cabin in the woods dealing with some kind of killer

[1:35:59] that hasn't been hurt by the fact that it doesn't have a major military presence taking place in a side story.

Evan Dorkin

[1:36:06] And a war between two men who were formerly comrades.

[1:36:10] Yeah.

[1:36:11] He loved him like a son.

Elliott Kalan

[1:36:13] Insert projectiles into one another.

Evan Dorkin

[1:36:14] There's a lot of dick stuff going on in this film.

[1:36:17] There really is.

Elliott Kalan

[1:36:18] The original title of the movie was Dick Catcher.

[1:36:19] Yeah.

Dan McCoy

[1:36:20] He shoots the helicopter, blows up, blah, blah, blah.

[1:36:24] He uses the gun.

[1:36:26] Yeah.

Stuart Wellington

[1:36:27] He uses the gun finally.

[1:36:29] Yeah.

[1:36:29] It's pretty – it's a pretty interesting rap for Morgan Freeman.

[1:36:34] Like, is it like we don't even see a reaction when he's dying.

[1:36:37] He's like, no.

[1:36:38] Just get me out of here.

Dan McCoy

[1:36:40] Yeah.

[1:36:41] Thomas Jane comes in.

[1:36:42] He shoots a shit weasel that jumps right onto the barrel of his gun.

[1:36:45] Mr. Gray tries to –

[1:36:47] It jumps mouth first.

[1:36:47] He's known for having a particularly good, like, self-preservation mentality.

[1:36:52] I just thought it was notable.

[1:36:54] Mr. Gray tries to fake him out pretending to be Jonesy.

Elliott Kalan

[1:36:58] It's one of those movies where the aliens are killing machines until the time when the heroes have to kill them,

[1:37:03] which case they are fools and morons and they can't accomplish anything.

[1:37:07] Yeah.

Dan McCoy

[1:37:08] Gray pretends to just be Jonesy.

[1:37:10] Jane reasonably doesn't trust him and asks for proof with something that Gray couldn't possibly know,

[1:37:15] which is dumb because he's in his brain.

[1:37:17] I don't understand this at all.

Evan Dorkin

[1:37:18] He's in the warehouse.

[1:37:19] For God's sakes, didn't you see the movie?

[1:37:21] Yeah.

Dan McCoy

[1:37:22] But he gets interrupted by Duditz anyway, who's managed the strength to stumble in.

[1:37:27] Yeah.

[1:37:28] Because his leukemia was killing him apparently that entire time.

Evan Dorkin

[1:37:32] He was fighting the leukemia to get into the end of the movie.

Dan McCoy

[1:37:37] He's going to save the day.

[1:37:38] Gray leaves Jonesy to reveal his true alien form.

[1:37:41] He grabs Duditz.

[1:37:42] Now, when he leaves Jonesy to reveal his true alien form, what organic mass is he confusing?

Elliott Kalan

[1:37:47] It's very confusing, isn't it?

[1:37:48] Yeah.

Evan Dorkin

[1:37:49] It seems like he's writing him as a phantom.

[1:37:51] It's like red dust that came out of his pores.

[1:37:53] It doesn't make any sense.

[1:37:54] You feel like he would have been ripping out of him or – the whole way that they do the possession makes no sense in this film.

Dan McCoy

[1:38:03] Yeah.

[1:38:03] But also, as I think you're saying, Elliot, he seems to be creating actual matter.

[1:38:09] He seems to be creating a body out of nothing.

Elliott Kalan

[1:38:11] Yeah.

[1:38:12] It doesn't – yeah.

[1:38:13] Kind of like a writer.

[1:38:15] Ooh.

[1:38:17] Wow.

[1:38:18] Yeah.

[1:38:18] Look, he made – so you're saying this is kind of like a look I made a hat type act of creation artistically.

[1:38:23] Pathality.

Dan McCoy

[1:38:24] The big alien stabs Duditz with his spiky tail.

[1:38:30] But that's what Duditz wanted, I guess, because he turns into his own alien form.

[1:38:33] There's more –

[1:38:34] And stabs Gray with his tail.

[1:38:36] So much penetration in this film.

Elliott Kalan

[1:38:38] Now, is this – and so I thought this was revealing –

[1:38:40] And then they like yin-yang it to death.

[1:38:41] What?

[1:38:41] I thought this was revealing that Duditz was an alien.

[1:38:44] But in the Wikipedia summary, it describes this as being a consequence of the infection of Duditz by Mr. Gray.

[1:38:50] So what's going on here, guys?

[1:38:51] What do you think is happening here?

[1:38:53] Is this Duditz true for him?

[1:38:54] I assumed he was an alien.

[1:38:55] Which is a fictional monster?

[1:38:55] Yeah.

Dan McCoy

[1:38:56] And there's all that stuff where like all the fans like I think that he's an alien.

[1:38:59] They talk early – yeah.

Evan Dorkin

[1:39:00] Throughout the movie, you're led to believe he's an alien because in the exposition dumps, Pete or whatever his name is, he's like, I think he's an alien from another planet and I gave his powers to do something for the world.

Elliott Kalan

[1:39:12] So he's some kind of like traitor to his own people.

[1:39:15] I think he's a different type of alien.

[1:39:18] Oh, boy.

Evan Dorkin

[1:39:18] He's red as opposed to gray.

[1:39:21] We all know from War of the Gargantuas and from –

[1:39:26] We all do.

[1:39:27] That you have to have different colors for the way that you feel about the world and from – what do you call it?

[1:39:31] Not rock-em-sock-em robots.

[1:39:33] Yeah.

Dan McCoy

[1:39:34] And when he transforms, he looks more like a stone cat.

[1:39:37] He looks like a sleepwalker kind of.

[1:39:39] Oh, don't invoke that.

[1:39:41] Well, anyway, he infects the bad alien.

[1:39:44] They both explode into red dust.

[1:39:47] Cool.

Elliott Kalan

[1:39:47] Much like in the movie Red Dust where Clark Gable explodes into red dust.

[1:39:50] I was going to say not to be – yes.

[1:39:51] Very, very – yes.

Dan McCoy

[1:39:52] Good one.

[1:39:53] Good.

[1:39:54] One more thing.

[1:39:55] A worm crawls toward the manhole.

[1:39:58] Is he going to get there?

[1:39:58] No.

[1:39:59] Jonesy squashes it at the last moment, proving that gray is gone.

[1:40:02] It's really him.

[1:40:03] Fantastic.

[1:40:03] The end.

[1:40:04] The tale of Dreamcatcher.

[1:40:05] Fantastic.

[1:40:05] Copyright whenever.

[1:40:06] It is such an abrupt ending too.

[1:40:08] It is.

[1:40:08] It's really funny.

Elliott Kalan

[1:40:09] Hey, it's me, Jonesy.

[1:40:10] Credits.

Evan Dorkin

[1:40:11] See you.

[1:40:12] Also, the dog –

[1:40:13] Over the credits.

[1:40:14] We've been shown to see that the aliens lay many eggs.

[1:40:19] Yeah.

[1:40:19] And the dog apparently had a big belly.

[1:40:22] The dog is whining.

[1:40:23] The fucking dog, right?

[1:40:24] Yeah.

[1:40:24] The dog is alive throughout the infestation.

[1:40:27] It just keeps complaining.

[1:40:29] Good actor, though.

[1:40:30] Yeah.

[1:40:31] It was probably the best actor in the film.

[1:40:32] He had real motivation.

[1:40:34] He wants these eggs to fuck out.

[1:40:35] But the dog never farts.

Stuart Wellington

[1:40:39] And dogs, in my experience, are farters.

[1:40:41] Yeah.

[1:40:41] They're much more open about it.

Evan Dorkin

[1:40:43] You know?

[1:40:43] They're not holding them.

[1:40:44] They would definitely let him rip.

[1:40:46] The dog sits throughout that part of it because he gets the dog when he gets the truck.

[1:40:50] And he puts the eggs inside the dog.

[1:40:52] And only one egg comes out.

[1:40:54] The dog never goes through.

[1:40:55] I mean, there's just such a lack of attention paid to this thing that for the money spent is just incredible.

Stuart Wellington

[1:41:02] You heard it here, folks.

[1:41:03] Not enough farts, Rage Evan Dwayne.

Evan Dorkin

[1:41:06] That's not –

[1:41:06] You know, I mean, but if you're going to –

[1:41:08] Needs more from dogs.

[1:41:08] If you're going to have Chekhov's fart.

[1:41:10] Yeah.

Elliott Kalan

[1:41:12] You need to –

[1:41:12] I kind of wish the ending was they squish that last one and they're like, we did it.

[1:41:16] And then you see that dog has dragged itself to the water and just kind of falls in.

[1:41:20] Throws up.

Evan Dorkin

[1:41:20] Throws up.

[1:41:22] There's another ship above.

[1:41:24] It's like the end of – oh, God.

[1:41:29] What's the movie with the slugs, Tom Atkinson?

Elliott Kalan

[1:41:31] Oh, The Creeps or no?

Evan Dorkin

[1:41:33] Yeah, Night of the Creeps.

[1:41:34] Night of the Creeps.

[1:41:35] You know, and there's more happening.

[1:41:37] But it's –

[1:41:39] The ending really is just such a fizzle of bad special –

Stuart Wellington

[1:41:43] Unlike the other Stephen King adaptation starring Tom Jane, The Mist.

[1:41:48] I did not see that.

[1:41:50] Oh, it's got a fun ending.

[1:41:51] Right, Dan?

Evan Dorkin

[1:41:52] The problem is I know the ending.

[1:41:53] Okay.

[1:41:54] And I did read that book.

[1:41:55] I reread it.

[1:41:56] It's not as good as I remembered it.

[1:41:57] But, you know, it is what it is.

[1:42:00] But, I mean, this movie feels like everything, King.

[1:42:02] It's every King.

[1:42:03] Yeah.

Stuart Wellington

[1:42:04] Yeah.

[1:42:05] It's like a Stephen King fever dream kind of.

[1:42:08] It feels like a Stephen King sample.

Evan Dorkin

[1:42:09] You were saying real quick about the end credits we get to share.

Dan McCoy

[1:42:12] We see, like, them laughing and joking with each other as if the audience has forgotten what movie they just watched.

Elliott Kalan

[1:42:19] It's supposed to be like – it's supposed to be like, oh, our heroes in better times.

[1:42:24] We love them.

[1:42:24] Didn't you love them?

Evan Dorkin

[1:42:25] Yeah, exactly.

[1:42:26] This used to be a playground, this magic moment, you know?

[1:42:29] It's a really cowardly way out.

[1:42:31] It really – that's a sex – a beach sex romp ending.

[1:42:37] Yeah.

[1:42:37] Credits ending, you know, when you see everybody hopping up and down and, you know, throwing hot dogs around and, whoops, my top came off.

[1:42:44] And I don't know if it's my blood.

[1:42:45] Didn't we love that scene where, you know, we basically had a hilarious rape like in, you know, Revenge of the Nerds?

[1:42:54] Yeah.

[1:42:55] And this movie actually, yeah, goes back and says, remember all the terrible scenes that we had in this film?

[1:43:00] Mm-hmm.

Dan McCoy

[1:43:01] Remember how annoying all the fake conversation was?

Stuart Wellington

[1:43:04] The only thing that would have made that ending work is if the four of them are sitting around that table and then there was a fifth chair and it was one of those shit weasels just hanging out with them.

[1:43:12] And they're like, oh, buddy, you got me this time.

[1:43:15] The next time I'll get you.

Evan Dorkin

[1:43:17] Or a glowing Jedi gut-its.

[1:43:19] Yeah.

[1:43:21] And he's just, you know, he's doing his waving.

[1:43:23] He's playing with his Scooby.

[1:43:24] I cannot believe at the end of this fucking, this crazy, that he goes, ooby-dooby, ooby, fuck, I can't even say it.

[1:43:32] Ooby-ooby-doo?

[1:43:34] Yeah.

[1:43:34] And he says, we got some work to do now.

[1:43:36] We got some work to do.

[1:43:37] And I would have loved to have seen this in a theater with an audience just for that scene.

[1:43:42] Because I would feel like that it would have been like Times Square, 1986.

[1:43:46] Bullets would have flown.

[1:43:48] Laser lights would have been hitting the screen.

[1:43:50] That means it's just fights in the aisles.

Stuart Wellington

[1:43:53] Like Rite of Spring.

[1:43:54] I feel like they wasted all their money on the special effects because they could have gotten the musical sting of the actual Scooby-Doo song to play.

[1:44:02] Oh, wow.

[1:44:03] Yeah, you're right.

Elliott Kalan

[1:44:04] They didn't have it when he shows up.

[1:44:05] That would have been great.

[1:44:06] So what do we do now, Dan?

[1:44:08] Maybe they would have had the right casting in this movie because I think if it was the Golden Girls instead of these four guys, it would have been a different movie.

[1:44:13] Yes.

[1:44:14] Better movie in some ways.

Dan McCoy

[1:44:15] What do we do now?

[1:44:16] What we do now is we do our final judgments whether this is a good bad movie, a movie that you enjoy because you get maybe a few laughs out of it because it's a bad, bad movie.

[1:44:26] A movie that you do not care for at all or a movie that you kind of like.

[1:44:29] You know, sometimes we actually like these movies.

[1:44:33] I'm going to go – I'm going to go bad, bad.

[1:44:38] But I'm going to say that if you are a –

[1:44:40] You need a hug.

[1:44:42] Do you need a duditz hug?

Elliott Kalan

[1:44:44] Do you need a dream catcher group hug?

[1:44:48] Dan has often told me that he needs a duditz in his life.

[1:44:50] Yeah.

[1:44:51] You all need a duditz.

Dan McCoy

[1:44:52] The problem is it's so long and kind of dry for a movie that's so weird that I can't quite recommend it as a good, bad movie.

[1:45:01] But if you're the kind of person who's interested in like when things go wrong, you might like to see this because it's sort of fascinating how they're working so hard to make sort of fundamentally impossible material work.

[1:45:16] And how there's so much like talent on and behind the screen that was thrown into this thing that doesn't work at all.

[1:45:23] But in terms of my actual enjoyment, I'm going to say bad, bad.

[1:45:26] What do you say, Stuart?

Stuart Wellington

[1:45:27] Yeah, I feel like for me, I think it tips into a good, bad movie.

[1:45:31] It's like such a mistake and there's so many wrong choices.

[1:45:35] It is tough to get through.

[1:45:37] But that's, you know, that's a challenge for you bad movie sickos out there.

[1:45:41] So I think it's a good, bad movie.

Elliott Kalan

[1:45:42] I'm going to call it a bad, bad movie, but I think if it was like 30 to 40 minutes shorter, I would call it a good, bad movie because it's just – there's so – it's really at certain – so many times during it, I'm like, what is this movie about?

[1:45:56] Like they felt like they needed to shovel more stuff into this movie and it careens around.

[1:46:00] It does feel like someone took a bunch of Stephen King books and just kind of like threw them in a blender and chopped them up and then poured out like a Stephen King smoothie with all the things he does.

[1:46:08] But it's just so long.

[1:46:09] It just takes so long to get through.

[1:46:11] I'm going to call it a bad, bad movie.

[1:46:12] And Evan, you were saying before the recording, this is a movie you kind of like, that you kind of – you enjoy it quite a bit?

Evan Dorkin

[1:46:18] No, I almost hung myself for the second time in my life because of this film.

[1:46:21] We were watching this thing.

[1:46:22] I was so sad that – I was so angry at myself for sponsoring this film.

[1:46:28] I should have picked something else.

[1:46:30] I really did not – I watched it – I had, what, like a week to watch it?

[1:46:33] And I waited until the last moment because I don't think it's a – I think it's a bad, bad movie.

[1:46:41] But I would suggest the category of fascinating bad movie.

[1:46:45] Yeah.

[1:46:46] Because especially if you like films or if you're a writer or a creator, it's a fascinating disaster.

[1:46:56] Of how bad – I mean, it's fascinating because it is a distillation of everything King wrote.

[1:47:01] It's – that even he admits that it's a best of almost.

[1:47:07] But it really is – it's dream logic Stephen King.

[1:47:11] It's a – and the movie is – there's so much talent involved.

[1:47:15] So it's fascinating to watch, you know, terrible films made by people who have made good films.

[1:47:22] And it's just – it's so stupid.

[1:47:25] It breaks so many laws of filmmaking, screenwriting, acting, logic.

[1:47:32] It just – it should never have been made as is.

[1:47:37] So I think it's worth seeing because it's a – it's a – it's an object lesson, you know,

[1:47:43] and everything going wrong in a Hollywood production.

Elliott Kalan

[1:47:46] I always wonder with movies like this, at what point did the people making it know that they were in trouble and this was not going to work?

Evan Dorkin

[1:47:52] How did they – but I mean, they – I mean, do you wonder when you see so many films like – of this sort or even successful films that you just don't like?

[1:48:00] I mean, you just wonder why wasn't there – why weren't the breaks applied when you're going to spend $70 million or whatever it cost?

[1:48:10] When are the breaks applied that somebody just goes, wait a second, we have a lot of problems in this.

[1:48:16] Now, supposedly – I didn't do too much looking into it.

[1:48:19] Supposedly, Goldman did a pass and he threw out a ton of material.

[1:48:25] Oh, really?

[1:48:25] He seemed to – if I remember correctly, he was more interested in the main story of four guys up in that cabin and things happen, blah, blah, blah.

[1:48:34] And Kazdan came in and put back a lot of it.

[1:48:40] Now, I don't know who made the decision to silly putty Stephen King's dialogue.

[1:48:46] Because even people who love King, I mean, it's not like it's a secret that Stephen King's dialogue does not play well in film about where you're trying to portray life as somewhat realistic.

[1:48:57] Yeah, like actuality, yeah.

[1:48:58] It doesn't even have a verisimilitude.

[1:49:00] I mean, he makes up social interactions and behavior and bonding between these characters and dialogue that does not exist anywhere on this planet.

[1:49:14] Yeah.

[1:49:14] It's a – everything is forced and dated.

[1:49:18] It's dated to a television version of the 50s.

[1:49:24] Maybe Stephen King is one of these greys.

[1:49:27] It's possible.

[1:49:28] Maybe he's a duditz.

[1:49:31] The thing that's amazing to – the other thing is if duditz is an alien, where the fuck did he come from?

[1:49:36] Because he grew up in this town.

[1:49:39] He has a mother.

[1:49:40] Yeah.

[1:49:41] She's probably an alien too.

[1:49:42] Yeah, my stepmother's an alien.

[1:49:44] I've seen that.

[1:49:44] But I mean, I don't – the character makes – I believe he's not an alien in the book if I have that right.

[1:49:52] But I mean, if he's not an alien in the book, then this breaks the law of the two miracles in writing.

[1:49:59] You've got aliens, which is one miracle, and then you deal with that.

[1:50:01] But then you've got aliens, but you've also got psychic humans.

[1:50:05] And in film, that's just a little too much to ask for.

Stuart Wellington

[1:50:08] It might work in a book.

[1:50:10] It would have been so easy to just cut all the military stuff out.

[1:50:14] It really would have.

[1:50:15] Yeah.

Evan Dorkin

[1:50:16] It really would have.

[1:50:16] You could have just had local police.

[1:50:19] This could have been the first time this ever happened.

[1:50:21] The same way like in The Thing, which this also makes you think of.

[1:50:26] It just – also, it just does not feel original in any sense.

Stuart Wellington

[1:50:29] Yeah.

[1:50:30] And the fact that it feels like he's cribbing from himself is the weirdest thing about it.

[1:50:34] I mean, definitely.

[1:50:35] It's The Stand.

Evan Dorkin

[1:50:36] It's The Shining.

[1:50:37] It's Carrie.

[1:50:38] It's – it's – it's – you know, it's King, you know, which he does a lot in his later books.

Elliott Kalan

[1:50:44] It's possible that he read his own books, forgot he had written them, and wrote a book.

[1:50:50] He's like, I'm going to write like this author that I like a lot, but I'm going to make it – I'm going to exaggerate it.

[1:50:54] I'm going to make the dialogue even crazier.

Evan Dorkin

[1:50:56] This is what happens when you write on painkillers after a traumatic thing happens.

Stuart Wellington

[1:51:01] And I feel like he got through it.

[1:51:03] Yeah.

[1:51:03] Yeah, I'm glad he got through it.

[1:51:04] But I wish –

[1:51:04] He had to get this one out of his system, I guess.

[1:51:05] He probably didn't need to turn it into a major motion picture, though.

[1:51:08] Maybe he didn't need to publish it.

Elliott Kalan

[1:51:10] The thing is – that's the other thing about Stephen King is – I know that the way he – because, you know, I read his writing book.

[1:51:15] He's like, every day I write 10 pages.

[1:51:17] I don't do much rewriting.

[1:51:18] And his best books, that – you can – there's this, like, momentum to it.

[1:51:23] You know, everything keeps moving.

[1:51:25] But in his worst books, you can really tell, like, oh, he didn't really go back and fix these things.

Evan Dorkin

[1:51:29] He's just typing.

[1:51:29] He's just – it's funny that you mentioned momentum because one of the things I kept thinking through this is that it really felt like there was no urgency.

[1:51:38] You know, the only time there's any urgency is when there's a bunch of helicopters flying around.

[1:51:42] Dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun.

[1:51:43] You know, the after music is going.

[1:51:45] But otherwise, I mean, that end scene is a masterclass in how not to get an audience interested.

[1:51:51] I mean, cars just pull up.

[1:51:52] People walk out of them.

[1:51:53] They go to this very boring-looking reservoir building.

[1:51:56] They didn't – you know what I mean?

[1:51:57] And then it's a set.

[1:51:58] There's so many sets, which is – you know?

[1:52:01] The cabin is clearly a set.

[1:52:02] The reservoir is a set.

[1:52:03] Yeah.

[1:52:04] It looks phony, especially for a movie where money was spent.

[1:52:09] But, I mean, they get out of the car.

[1:52:10] And then they have made it clear.

[1:52:12] One worm gets in the reservoir.

[1:52:15] The earth is done.

[1:52:16] Oh, humanity is gone.

[1:52:17] Right.

[1:52:17] It's the thing thing.

[1:52:18] If the thing gets out, we're done.

[1:52:19] But at least you understand the way the thing works.

[1:52:22] You've seen the thing in action.

[1:52:23] It's gross.

[1:52:24] You get it, and it will immediately.

[1:52:27] It will not fuck around and fart around.

[1:52:29] It will end the earth.

[1:52:31] This is the way that the thing works.

[1:52:33] The worms, they lie to you?

[1:52:36] Okay, they lied to me.

[1:52:38] You know, ooh, they're going to lie.

[1:52:39] So they tell you, this is the goal.

[1:52:44] The alien is going to try to dump a worm into the reservoir.

[1:52:49] It's going to put a joker fish in the Gotham reservoir.

[1:52:53] We've got to stop this thing.

[1:52:55] So Tom Sizemore has already displaced the obstacle in the army.

[1:53:00] Morgan Freeman has been sidelined.

[1:53:03] And they know they're fighting aliens.

[1:53:05] At no time does he go to Mr. Nice General and say, we need to, on all points bulletin,

[1:53:12] get everybody in those helicopters to the reservoir.

Elliott Kalan

[1:53:16] That's something we skipped over.

[1:53:17] Which baffled me at the time is, he brings in the other general to be like, Morgan Freeman

[1:53:21] has lost it.

[1:53:22] You've got to take over.

[1:53:23] And then he smashes a truck into the place where Thomas Jane is being held captive and

[1:53:28] goes, we've got to get out of here, and runs out.

[1:53:29] He doesn't have to do that.

Stuart Wellington

[1:53:31] You think I was in control right now.

[1:53:32] He's in charge.

Evan Dorkin

[1:53:33] He has the ear of the general, and he's also, the general has not had this experience with

[1:53:39] the 25 years fighting the shitwizzles.

[1:53:42] And he was going to give, Tom Sizemore was supposed to inherit Morgan Freeman's role.

[1:53:47] Yeah, he was supposed to be in charge anyway.

[1:53:48] So not only does he not, does he act as if he's a felon, you know, he's like, you know,

[1:53:56] the fugitive.

[1:53:57] He busts him out and then says, me and you, no one else.

[1:54:01] They don't get helicopters.

[1:54:02] They don't get more men.

[1:54:03] They could have ended this.

Stuart Wellington

[1:54:05] So I stepped out for a second.

[1:54:08] I missed it.

[1:54:08] Was Evan's review, was your review kind of liked?

Evan Dorkin

[1:54:12] The movie you kind of liked?

[1:54:14] I loved it.

[1:54:17] I loved better than E.T., better than Star Wars, better than Bloodthirsty Butcher.

[1:54:21] Finally, aliens get a good representation.

[1:54:22] But again, and at the very end, we know that the Earth is at risk, but they keep stopping

[1:54:27] the action for these moments.

[1:54:29] I mean, Tom Sizemore watches the helicopter do circles to come back to shoot him again.

[1:54:35] But because they're in their fucking, you know, they don't kiss.

Elliott Kalan

[1:54:38] This is all that matters now is me going mano-a-mano.

Evan Dorkin

[1:54:40] All he has to do, he could just run, he could have run into the reservoir and saved the Earth.

[1:54:45] Doesn't do it.

[1:54:46] Luckily.

[1:54:47] Multiple times.

[1:54:48] This helicopter.

[1:54:49] Okay, hold on, hold on, hold on.

Elliott Kalan

[1:54:51] Luckily, Mr. Gray has picked a body that is very bad at lifting manhole cuppers.

Evan Dorkin

[1:54:55] And Thomas Chain has to spend all this time making sure Duditz is comfortable and beloved.

[1:55:02] Are you okay, Duditz?

[1:55:04] I okay.

[1:55:05] I want you to be comfortable.

[1:55:07] I okay.

[1:55:07] How's your leukemia?

[1:55:09] Doing fine.

[1:55:11] But meanwhile, the Earth.

[1:55:14] Hello, the fucking Earth.

[1:55:16] He doesn't even run.

[1:55:18] He doesn't even run.

[1:55:18] He just kind of waddles over.

[1:55:20] It is such a...

Elliott Kalan

[1:55:21] If you didn't know that Duditz was going to be...

[1:55:23] They're staying in the car.

[1:55:24] He's like, I got to protect Duditz in the car.

[1:55:26] If you didn't think Duditz was key to defeating this alien, why did you stop and get Duditz and

[1:55:30] then bring him over?

Evan Dorkin

[1:55:32] It is just a phony...

[1:55:34] It is the phoniest, crappiest waste of money.

[1:55:38] I mean, there are plenty of bad films out there, but it's just...

[1:55:41] It's just...

[1:55:41] It's a real shame because this money could have fed people.

[1:55:45] Yeah.

[1:55:45] It could have cured leukemia.

Elliott Kalan

[1:55:47] I mean, it did feed people.

[1:55:48] Yeah, it did cast and crew.

[1:55:49] There were plenty of people in the cast and crew.

[1:55:51] There was a crafty, I'm sure.

[1:55:52] Yeah, yeah.

S5

[1:55:53] Thank you to all the MaxFun members who supported us during MaxFunDrive.

[1:56:01] You're helping us as we try to put more good into the world.

[1:56:05] And as part of putting more good into the world, we've opened our annual post-drive charity sale.

[1:56:09] MaxFun members at $10 per month or more can purchase MaxFunDrive keychains featuring designs for shows across the network.

[1:56:16] And all members can buy our charity exclusive keychain starring Mikey, our little microphone buddy from this year's MaxFunDrive.

[1:56:23] This year, we've decided to send the proceeds of the charity sale to the Center for Constitutional Rights.

[1:56:28] They're dedicated to the creative use of law as a positive force for social change, tackling issues like human rights abuses, racial injustice, and sexual and gender-based violence.

[1:56:39] These folks are fighting to make things better.

[1:56:41] So to get your keychains and support the Center for Constitutional Rights, head to MaximumFun.org slash charity sale.

[1:56:48] And if you're not yet a member, you can still get in on this.

[1:56:51] To support the show you're listening to and get access to bonus content and the charity sale, just click the link in the show notes.

[1:56:57] The sale is live now and it ends on Friday, May 15th.

[1:57:01] That's MaximumFun.org slash charity sale.

[1:57:05] And thanks again.

S6

[1:57:09] Sleep is important, but it's difficult sometimes.

[1:57:13] I'm John Moe.

[1:57:14] On Sleeping with Celebrities, famous people help conk you out by talking in soothing voices about unimportant things.

[1:57:22] Maria Bamford on parking.

Elliott Kalan

[1:57:24] I parked in a bus stop.

[1:57:27] That's just not right.

[1:57:28] I am not a bus.

S6

[1:57:29] Roxanne Gay on airports.

Elliott Kalan

[1:57:32] My favorite airport is Indianapolis.

[1:57:34] It has a really smart layout.

S6

[1:57:37] Alan Tudyk on yardsticks.

Stuart Wellington

[1:57:40] You hand somebody a yardstick, yardsticks become part of the family.

S6

[1:57:44] Granted, it's a weird idea, but it's lots of fun and it works.

[1:57:49] Listen wherever you get podcasts.

Dan McCoy

[1:57:53] We're just going to take a little break from the chatter.

[1:57:58] The fun times we're having with Evan Dorkin, just someone that I know.

[1:58:05] The three of us all grew up reading his comics, admire very much, and tell you a little bit about Squarespace, first of all.

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[2:00:29] Yes, mostly it's been rainy.

[2:00:31] Yes, you know, it's going to go from too cold to too hot.

[2:00:35] But the good days are good.

[2:00:39] And speaking of good days, it'll be a good day with Factor because I like to cook.

[2:00:45] I like cooking.

[2:00:47] It's something I honestly do to unwind sometimes.

[2:00:50] But even me, even I am sometimes like, ugh, again?

[2:00:56] I have to do this again every day?

[2:00:58] It seems unfair.

[2:01:00] And takeout is too expensive, too unhealthy to use for more than a sometimes treat.

[2:01:07] And that's where Factor comes in.

[2:01:09] I've enjoyed these meals.

[2:01:10] So head to factormeals.com slash flop50off, that's the numeral 50, and use code flop50off to get 50% off and free daily greens per box with new subscription only.

[2:01:24] While supplies last until that September 27th, 2026.

[2:01:31] See website for more details.

[2:01:34] And now back to the show.

[2:01:38] We should quickly do our other brief segments.

[2:01:44] So what do we do next, Dan?

Evan Dorkin

[2:01:45] I hate this movie.

[2:01:47] I fucking hate this movie.

[2:01:49] In case I haven't made it clear because, you know, I may never get this shot again to say this, but I hate this.

Elliott Kalan

[2:01:54] No, we'll have you back once a year to watch Dreamcatcher.

[2:01:56] Tell us how you feel about it.

[2:01:57] Yeah, yeah.

[2:01:58] I'm stupid enough to do that.

Dan McCoy

[2:02:01] I'm just going to read this one letter.

[2:02:03] It's from Ian Lasting withheld, who writes.

[2:02:06] Ian Holm.

[2:02:06] Dan and Elliot's discussion of Gold Diggers of 1933 reminded me of one of my favorite movie conventions.

[2:02:14] Namely, when a movie attempts to reproduce another art form in a way that only works on film and wouldn't work in the medium it's supposedly evoking.

[2:02:21] Berklee is an obvious example since his dance numbers involve close-ups, dancers in formations that only make sense when seen from one specific angle,

[2:02:29] and transitions that would be impractical, if not impossible, to pull off live.

[2:02:35] Other examples I can think of are the ballet in the red shoes and the stage show in the bandwagon, which could be performed on stage,

[2:02:43] although I have no idea how the individual numbers we see, like triplets, Louisiana Hayride, and girl hunt ballet,

[2:02:50] could possibly fit into the modern retelling of Faust that's the show within the show's ostensible theme.

[2:02:56] With that in mind, do you have any favorite examples of this phenomenon?

[2:03:00] Regards, Ian Lasting withheld.

[2:03:02] This is another one that, like, I think is a really interesting question.

[2:03:04] I'm coming up a little short other than things that are similar to, you know, like, there's so many examples of theatrical productions where I'm like,

[2:03:12] that, okay, I accept it because this is a movie, but that would not be the way it is.

[2:03:18] That's the, that's the...

Evan Dorkin

[2:03:20] It drives me nuts that in any film where you're watching something and there's no, it just makes no sense.

[2:03:28] Yeah, the bandwagon is a perfect example.

[2:03:30] What does this have to do with the plot of the movie?

[2:03:33] I get that musicals are fantasy, you know, that we break, everybody breaks into song and whatnot,

[2:03:38] but what kind of play would they make?

[2:03:40] Like, it has nothing to do with files.

[2:03:42] Having Oscar Levant in a baby outfit has nothing to do with...

[2:03:48] Actually, no, I don't think Oscar Levant is in the baby outfit.

[2:03:51] I think he's not...

[2:03:53] He was, it's Fred Astaire.

Elliott Kalan

[2:03:55] And there's the character who plays, like, the director of the play.

Evan Dorkin

[2:03:58] Right, and that guy, who was a theatrical actor.

[2:04:01] Oscar Levant was supposed to be in it, but Oscar Levant was too busily engaged in drug taking.

[2:04:08] And I think, if you noticed in that movie, in Oscar Levant movies, he literally walks off screen in a couple of musical numbers because he cannot do things.

[2:04:19] I love Oscar Levant.

[2:04:20] Unfortunately, he was a horrible drug addict and had a lot of problems.

[2:04:24] But there's a scene, I forget, is it like the show, there's a show business number.

[2:04:28] And everybody walks towards you and Oscar Levant goes, nope.

[2:04:32] He just goes up.

[2:04:33] But yeah, it's funny when you have a movie and they go, we're doing this great production.

[2:04:38] And they do nothing towards that.

[2:04:41] But yeah, I mean, the question is kind of getting to, what is it that film...

Elliott Kalan

[2:04:46] Like, showing...

[2:04:48] What works in film that wouldn't work?

[2:04:49] Because my answer, because Dan only sends us the questions.

[2:04:51] He doesn't send us the context of the letters.

[2:04:52] Well, I gave you some clarifying context for this because it's more complex.

[2:04:54] So my thing that I was going to say was the ballet and the red shoes.

[2:04:57] Oh, yeah.

[2:04:58] But it's like, something that comes to mind, although it's not exactly the same thing as like in the Laurence Olivier version of Henry V.

[2:05:05] How it starts out with them doing it Shakespeare style on a stage and it turns into reality.

[2:05:12] And it's such a...

[2:05:13] I feel like that's a really successful way of showing what happens to you when you're engrossed in a theatrical production.

[2:05:19] Which is, you stop seeing it as a show and you start seeing it as a real thing.

Evan Dorkin

[2:05:22] Yeah, it's a really neat choice.

[2:05:23] I mean, also because it grounds it in, you know, the reality of the time to a degree.

[2:05:29] I mean, it's a really...

[2:05:30] It's a neat device.

[2:05:32] I think that, though, we're overlooking the greatest...

[2:05:36] It's not necessarily a creative thing, but I think that Jonesy's Mind Warehouse...

[2:05:43] Sure.

[2:05:43] As shown in the fabulous film, the underrated film, Dreamcatcher, 2003.

[2:05:52] Laurence Kasdan, director, screenwriter with the great William Goldman.

[2:05:56] And I believe that nothing has matched this in showing the inner mind at work, the mind of a creative person at work, a person involved in art.

[2:06:05] A creative person, sure.

[2:06:07] Well, there's that, sure.

[2:06:08] If you want to bring that into it.

[2:06:10] I do.

[2:06:12] But, yeah, Dreamcatcher.

[2:06:15] I'm also, you know, you always have...

[2:06:18] You have scenes where people are envisioning their book and you...

[2:06:22] Yeah.

[2:06:23] You know, the scene changes to the book or animation certainly can do things.

[2:06:29] I'm trying to think of a film that actually does that, though, in animation.

[2:06:35] My...

Dan McCoy

[2:06:35] Coming up short.

[2:06:36] The thing that's coming to me is like...

[2:06:38] Dreamcatcher?

[2:06:38] It's less that, like, oh, it's doing a thing that can only be done in film.

[2:06:42] The animated series.

[2:06:45] It's less that it's, like, doing a thing that can only be done in film that doesn't make sense.

[2:06:49] And more, like, just me being like, okay, there's some shorthand that needs to happen here for the story.

[2:06:55] But it's a silly one because, like, it's a Muppet movie.

[2:07:01] But it's the Muppets Take Manhattan.

[2:07:03] And even as a kid, even as a kid watching a Muppets Take Manhattan, I'm like, is this the whole musical that we're seeing right now?

Elliott Kalan

[2:07:11] Like, it doesn't seem to be telling a full story.

[2:07:14] Yeah, they're going to Broadway with a roughly 10-minute musical.

Dan McCoy

[2:07:17] Yeah, and then at the end, I guess these new people can come straight into the musical without rehearsing?

Evan Dorkin

[2:07:24] Yeah, yeah.

[2:07:25] The idea that everybody bursts into song.

[2:07:26] I always thought that it would be funny if there was a scene where a musical just kind of, like, started up and a lot of people were like, what the fuck are you doing?

[2:07:32] Yeah.

[2:07:33] Get off that table?

[2:07:34] Well, we're singing.

[2:07:35] Singing what?

[2:07:37] You know, it's, yeah.

[2:07:37] But, I mean, musicals, especially something like Busby Berkeley.

[2:07:41] I mean, because montages was something that, you know, montages in general, but you can do montages in comics.

[2:07:47] Mm-hmm.

[2:07:48] You can lay out a montage on a page of comics, and it creates, you know, you got your Eisensteinian hoo-ha going there.

[2:07:55] That is what they taught me in film school, Eisensteinian hoo-ha.

[2:07:58] Mm-hmm.

[2:07:58] But, so that's not just film, but, yeah.

[2:08:03] I mean, musicals, because musicals are just such a, can you do that in a, you can't do it in theater unless the mechanics, I mean, can you do Busby Berkeley in theater?

[2:08:13] I know they've tried.

Elliott Kalan

[2:08:14] The closest thing I've seen to it is, like, mirrors.

[2:08:16] Mirrors.

[2:08:17] Yeah, with mirrors.

[2:08:18] Like, when the producers was on Broadway, they had a big mirror so you could see that they were dancing in a swastika.

[2:08:22] Oh, cool.

[2:08:23] Yeah, but that's not, yeah.

[2:08:24] It's not, it's not for the staging.

[2:08:26] No, yeah, no.

[2:08:27] I understand what you meant.

[2:08:28] Not for the hates.

[2:08:28] Yeah, I don't think it's, yeah.

[2:08:29] No, but, like, you can't, but the stuff that Busby Berkeley does in his musicals is so much, so far beyond just they're all in formation or something like that.

[2:08:36] You know, there's the ones where, I forget which one it's in now, where they're, like, all flying towards the camera really fast, each of the dancers.

[2:08:43] Like, they have, like, big blow-up balls in their hands or something like that, and they're all, like, flying into the air towards the camera.

[2:08:49] And it's like, what, are they flying, they're supposed to be flying towards the audience?

[2:08:51] Like, it doesn't, you know, it's a, they just give up on the idea of a theatrical space.

[2:08:55] Right.

Evan Dorkin

[2:08:55] There's that one film, I can't remember the name of it, but all the stars appear in the sky in the outer space.

Dan McCoy

[2:09:02] At the end of the, at the gang's all here, I think.

[2:09:04] Yes, that's it, the gang's all here.

Evan Dorkin

[2:09:05] And all of a sudden, everybody's bursting out of, like, you know, it's like, that's some, that's some amazing theatrical production.

[2:09:13] We can only do it once.

Elliott Kalan

[2:09:17] You're like, well, to achieve these effects, we do have to get LSD into the system of everybody in the audience.

Evan Dorkin

[2:09:25] Everyone lick your programs.

[2:09:27] You know, honestly, I was thinking about LSD, because I was thinking about, like, the end of 2001, or movies like The Trip, where, you know, they get all.

[2:09:35] But you can, you can sort of still do that in comics.

[2:09:38] Mm-hmm.

Dan McCoy

[2:09:39] You know, I mean.

[2:09:41] Well, it's less that, like, you can or can't do it.

[2:09:44] It's whether it, like, makes sense when you're depicting another thing.

Evan Dorkin

[2:09:48] But, I mean, a light show in your face with movement and music is obviously something you can't do in other medium, media.

Stuart Wellington

[2:09:59] Yeah.

[2:10:00] I'm just going to say, on my end, I'm going to do a little reference for the kids in the audience.

[2:10:05] And I was going to say the, there's a, in the second season of Euphoria, there is, one of the characters, one of the teenagers puts on a fucking play that she wrote herself.

[2:10:14] And then, herself, they approve this.

[2:10:17] They give her a lavish budget to have sets done.

[2:10:20] Yes.

[2:10:20] And it's basically just, like, shit-talking the main characters in the show.

[2:10:25] It's really crazy.

Dan McCoy

[2:10:26] It's, like, the silliest thing.

[2:10:28] And it is presented as a series of, like, scenes that make sense if you're, like, you know, in a TV show where you're, like, moving from, like, memory to, like, but I'm like, what is this show?

[2:10:38] Yeah, it's barely a show.

[2:10:39] What is this play?

[2:10:40] And how long is it?

Stuart Wellington

[2:10:41] It's basically just, like, hey, remember when my sister did all this crazy stuff?

Elliott Kalan

[2:10:44] I've seen plays like that.

Evan Dorkin

[2:10:48] There's also just, like, stuff like Maya Darin's films, which are, have to be films, you know?

Elliott Kalan

[2:10:55] Did she do Meshes of the Afternoon?

[2:10:56] Was that her?

Evan Dorkin

[2:10:57] She does short films.

[2:10:59] I can't remember the names of them, unfortunately.

[2:11:00] But, I mean, they're, like, total films.

[2:11:02] I think she may have, Elliot.

[2:11:03] Yeah.

[2:11:04] They're, you know, you can't write that, what she's doing.

[2:11:07] You can't really even draw it, necessarily.

[2:11:10] But it's a series of images and music.

[2:11:12] You know, like, Unshin and DeLue type, but more personal and even probably less representational.

[2:11:20] I'm trying to sound smart here.

[2:11:21] I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about.

[2:11:23] I mean, you know, experimental film.

[2:11:26] You know, I don't know.

[2:11:28] Andy Warhol's Sleep or shit like that.

[2:11:30] You know what I mean?

[2:11:31] I don't know if that falls under it, but I certainly wouldn't want to write a book about a guy sleeping.

[2:11:38] Just sleeping.

[2:11:39] Yeah, he's still sleeping.

[2:11:41] He's still sleeping.

[2:11:42] Page 400.

[2:11:43] He's still sleeping, you know.

Elliott Kalan

[2:11:44] Well, that's like, this isn't the exact same thing, but, like, the movie The Clock, the art installation movie, where it's shots from other movies that all have a clock or a watch on screen.

[2:11:55] And it's timed with the time that you're watching it, and so you're seeing time pass in front of you through these clips.

[2:12:02] And it's almost like adapting film into an art film, you know.

Evan Dorkin

[2:12:07] Or adapting film into a clock.

Elliott Kalan

[2:12:09] Yeah, it's actually adapting film into a clock.

Evan Dorkin

[2:12:12] I haven't seen this, but have you seen it?

[2:12:13] It's funny.

[2:12:14] It comes back to Stephen King, but talking about art, that weird version of the Langoliers TV set.

Dan McCoy

[2:12:21] Oh, yeah, the one that they did with, like, the torn up paper.

[2:12:24] They, like, cut it down and, like, Xeroxed the actual images and, like, animated the Xeroxes.

[2:12:31] I mean, it's – that might count.

[2:12:34] Timekeepers of Eternity.

[2:12:36] Yeah, I mean, that's what it's called.

Evan Dorkin

[2:12:37] I mean, yeah, it's film commenting on film in a, you know, tactical way.

[2:12:46] I mean, that's supposed to be pretty cool.

Dan McCoy

[2:12:49] I haven't seen it.

[2:12:50] I have it on my computer.

[2:12:52] I, like, dipped into it, and I was enjoying it, and then I stopped it, and I forgot about it.

[2:12:56] So, this is a good reminder to –

Evan Dorkin

[2:12:59] The Langoliers is not – I think – is that the one that's a vampire in a plane?

[2:13:03] Mm-hmm.

[2:13:04] Yeah.

Stuart Wellington

[2:13:05] Wow.

[2:13:05] Or is that Nightflyer?

[2:13:07] Oh.

[2:13:07] You know, I have a feeling it's Nightflyer.

Elliott Kalan

[2:13:10] Langoliers is the one – they're in a plane, but it's like they fall through a hole in space or something like that.

Dan McCoy

[2:13:14] It has, like, stuff that, like, chomps up space-time.

[2:13:17] Yeah.

[2:13:17] It's like – vampires do that?

[2:13:19] Floating Pac-Men.

[2:13:19] So, technically correct.

[2:13:21] They don't – they don't – I want to chomp through space-time.

[2:13:24] We should move on to our final segment.

Evan Dorkin

[2:13:25] Yeah, I feel like the guy kind of answered his own question, and we're fumbling around there.

[2:13:29] That often happens.

[2:13:30] That was a good question.

[2:13:31] That often happens.

[2:13:32] Let some academics play with that.

[2:13:33] We're doing Dreamcatcher here.

[2:13:35] Yeah.

Dan McCoy

[2:13:36] The last part of the show is where we recommend movies that –

Stuart Wellington

[2:13:39] We forget Dreamcatcher.

[2:13:39] We push Dreamcatcher out of our minds.

Dan McCoy

[2:13:42] Yeah.

[2:13:42] To recommend a movie.

[2:13:43] We're burning it.

Stuart Wellington

[2:13:44] We're burning it while being chased by a bad special effect.

Dan McCoy

[2:13:47] Let's instead recommend movies that we saw and enjoyed.

[2:13:50] I'm pretty sure I recommended this in the past, but I have seen a dearth of new things that I'm really enthusiastic about.

[2:13:57] So, I'm just going to return to – I re-watched the movie orgy, you know, listed from 1968, but it was re-edited several times.

[2:14:09] It was based on even older material.

[2:14:11] So, you know, release dates mean nothing for something like the movie orgy.

[2:14:14] This was Joe Dante's montage movie that started out – well, at one point at least, was like seven plus hours.

[2:14:24] Now exists in the sort of final cut of a mere four hours and 40 minutes or close to that.

[2:14:33] And it is, you know, material cut from several movies of the 50s mostly, some like TV stuff, commercials.

[2:14:47] Like it's just all sorts of footage.

[2:14:49] And it feels like kind of both like, I don't know, like the pop culture boomer psyche, but also a skeleton key to like all the stuff that Joe Dante particularly loves and like comes up in his movies.

[2:15:08] And, you know, it is montage that is juxtaposed in ways that make it funny.

[2:15:14] Sometimes it just is like that he lets something play out for a while and you just enjoy a clip.

[2:15:21] But it was designed for you to like kind of walk in and out.

[2:15:25] It used to play colleges.

[2:15:26] Like people could just sort of go out and have a smoke or get some pizza or whatever and come back and they haven't really missed anything because it's not a story.

[2:15:35] But you can sit down and watch it all.

[2:15:38] And I have –

[2:15:39] How long is this?

[2:15:40] It is four hours and I believe 40 minutes now.

[2:15:44] When did he do this?

Stuart Wellington

[2:15:47] So this was like really early on.

[2:15:50] I think this was like –

[2:15:51] He was a college student, right?

Dan McCoy

[2:15:52] Yeah.

[2:15:53] He was a college student.

[2:15:54] And it has been hard to see for a number of years because of obvious rights issues.

[2:16:02] You know, it would screen but you – they wouldn't like make people pay for it because then you would get into real trouble.

[2:16:09] But now somehow vinegar syndrome, I believe it is, put out a disc.

[2:16:14] I don't know what they did to do it but you –

Stuart Wellington

[2:16:18] Well, the process of putting out a disc.

[2:16:20] Thank you.

Evan Dorkin

[2:16:22] But it is available more widely than ever before.

[2:16:25] You would hope Dick Miller is in it multiple times.

[2:16:28] You've got to have a Dick Miller.

[2:16:30] I believe Dick Miller is in it.

Dan McCoy

[2:16:30] Really?

[2:16:31] He's not in it?

Evan Dorkin

[2:16:32] I don't know.

[2:16:33] You've got to have a Dick Miller.

[2:16:33] Dan, watch it again.

[2:16:35] Yeah.

[2:16:35] Yes.

[2:16:35] Oh, whoops.

[2:16:36] I missed something.

[2:16:38] I went out for pizza during the Dick Miller –

Stuart Wellington

[2:16:40] So I'm going to recommend a movie that is – has nothing in common with the other movie.

[2:16:46] Well, maybe a little.

[2:16:47] It's – I'm going to recommend a movie that came out last year from director Craig Brewer and that is the biopic about a Neil Diamond impersonation act,

[2:17:00] Song Sung Blue starring Hugh Jackman and Kate Hudson.

[2:17:05] I am quite vocal in saying musician biopics are my least favorite type of movie.

[2:17:12] And I think that Craig Brewer has a skill at depicting kind of lower level artists who are kind of seeking for something more

[2:17:26] and they have like kind of a humble blue-collar background and they're kind of reaching for something.

[2:17:33] And you know they're never going to get it, but that doesn't stop them from trying.

[2:17:36] And I think that was on display in his movie Dolomite Is My Name that has an amazing performance from Eddie Murphy to even something like Hustle and Flow.

[2:17:45] It's very sad.

[2:17:46] And I think there's some choices made with the life of the real-life people to like add to the drama in places.

[2:17:54] But also it helps that there's a lot of music from Neil Diamond, which is a plus for me.

[2:18:00] And Kate Hudson is great in it.

[2:18:02] No surprise.

[2:18:03] So I liked it.

[2:18:04] Song Sung Blue.

[2:18:05] It's very sad at times.

[2:18:07] Warning.

Elliott Kalan

[2:18:08] I haven't gotten to see many movies of worthwhile note lately because I've been watching so many Flophouse movies.

[2:18:15] But since Dan recommended a really long movie, I'll recommend a very short movie, which is – I think I'm going to recommend Apocalypse Pooh, which is a mashup movie from 1987 that mashes up Apocalypse Now and footage from Winnie the Pooh, the Disney version of Winnie the Pooh.

[2:18:30] And they do a pretty – the guy who did it was Todd Graham.

[2:18:35] And he does a very good job of finding images from Winnie the Pooh that fit with the monologues and dialogue from Apocalypse Now.

[2:18:44] So this is – it's just been floating around for a long time.

[2:18:47] Is that also a vinegar syndrome release?

[2:18:49] I don't believe it is.

[2:18:51] But you can find it online.

[2:18:52] It's only about eight minutes long.

[2:18:53] Eight minutes.

[2:18:54] Yeah, and so – but it's a – and even at eight minutes, you're like, I got it.

[2:18:57] But there's some fun juxtapositions in it.

[2:19:00] So that's what I'll recommend.

[2:19:02] And have you two any movies you'd like to recommend for us today?

Evan Dorkin

[2:19:04] I don't – I watch mostly garbage, as we were saying before we started this.

[2:19:10] I really don't like – I've seen Dreamcatcher.

[2:19:13] That's the William Goldman.

[2:19:14] I'll recommend good garbage.

[2:19:15] I was going to recommend – well, so I've got two, if you don't mind.

[2:19:19] They're both from 2017.

[2:19:20] You are.

Evan Dorkin

[2:19:20] That's right.

[2:19:22] I've tried to pick something that was made after 2000, but I didn't realize I could go to 1987.

[2:19:27] I went – I go through phases.

[2:19:30] Like, I spent – I write the movies down that I watch.

[2:19:33] I admit it.

[2:19:34] It's sad, but I admit it.

[2:19:35] My kid makes fun of me because I forget a lot of the things I watch.

[2:19:38] I don't have time to put shit on Letterboxd.

[2:19:41] Also, if I go to Letterboxd, I'll read some of the reviews, and I'll want to kill people.

[2:19:47] It's like IMDB for college – people who've been to college.

[2:19:50] It's just – it's stupid, but it has better words.

[2:19:54] So I was trying to think –

[2:19:55] By the way, Dan has a great Letterboxd.

Dan McCoy

[2:19:57] Dan loves it.

[2:19:58] I also believe in what Evan's saying.

[2:20:00] I've wanted to strangle a stranger for no bigger sin than they were dumb about a movie.

Evan Dorkin

[2:20:07] Like, have you – you got the plot wrong.

[2:20:09] Your entire thesis, Mr. Smartass.

[2:20:13] So I just thought, what have I liked that, you know, that's fairly recent?

[2:20:16] For some reason, two movies popped up, and I looked them up, and they're both 2017.

[2:20:20] The first one is called November.

[2:20:24] It's an Estonian folk horror.

[2:20:26] It's the – I don't really want to get into the plot because – but it's an overt folk horror film.

[2:20:34] It's not one of these folk horror where you go, well, you know, the folk horror was really kind of just on the side.

Stuart Wellington

[2:20:40] It was all our trauma all along.

Evan Dorkin

[2:20:42] It comes straight from the – it's a period piece.

[2:20:48] It's probably the only Estonian film I've ever seen, but it is gorgeous.

[2:20:53] The photography, the black and white photography is crisp and gorgeous.

[2:20:57] I enjoyed it as a film as well.

[2:20:59] Some people only like the photography, but it just worked for me.

[2:21:03] It's deep in folklore.

[2:21:09] It's a depressing, sad film with some laughs in it.

[2:21:15] But you just look it up, and you look at a couple of screenshots, and if that's what you're into.

[2:21:20] But I really like it.

[2:21:21] It's slow.

[2:21:22] It looks cool.

[2:21:22] It's a slow burner, but I think it's beautiful and really well done.

[2:21:27] And I enjoyed it much more than a lot of these elevated horror A24 things that people jump up and down over.

[2:21:33] It's got also an amazing opening.

[2:21:35] It's just a crazy, bizarre opening.

[2:21:39] It's got a dark, mordant wit to it, which is a phrase I will never use again, and I apologize.

[2:21:44] I'm trying to sound like an actual film fucking critic.

[2:21:47] What is this, Letterboxd?

[2:21:48] Come on.

[2:21:48] Yeah, what is this, Letterboxd?

[2:21:49] I know.

[2:21:50] The other film is – this might have been discussed on your show or by somebody, but it's also from 2017.

[2:21:56] It's called One Cut of the Dead.

Stuart Wellington

[2:22:00] That's one I've been meaning to watch for a long time.

Evan Dorkin

[2:22:03] So for once, I can't talk much.

[2:22:06] You won't have to – me and my jabber jaw.

[2:22:08] But one kind of thing is that literally people say don't say anything about it.

[2:22:13] Just go into it blind.

[2:22:15] And it's a 2017 film, Japanese film.

[2:22:21] And the only thing I would say is I think that everyone should see it, especially film fans.

[2:22:28] But you have to commit to it.

[2:22:30] You have to watch the entire thing.

[2:22:32] It's not a movie where at the last minute you get some stupid James Wan twist.

Stuart Wellington

[2:22:38] You know, the ventriloquist puppet was a corpse.

[2:22:41] Somehow you never smelled it.

[2:22:42] Ha-ha.

Evan Dorkin

[2:22:44] But the movie turns people off the first third and people get bored with it and they don't watch it.

[2:22:51] You've got to watch the entire film and I won't say anything more about it.

[2:22:55] But it's one of my favorite films that I've seen in the last few decades.

Stuart Wellington

[2:22:59] It's a –

[2:23:00] I think it's pretty scrappy.

[2:23:02] I really like the scrappiness of it.

Evan Dorkin

[2:23:04] But I mean I don't even want to tell you how you might feel at the end of it because I don't want anyone going into it cold going,

[2:23:12] well, at the end we're going to end up being depressed.

[2:23:15] And I'm not saying you will.

[2:23:16] But because you've got to be – you've got to sit through it and you've got to engage with it.

[2:23:23] And by the end I think you'll be very surprised and pleased that you watched it.

Elliott Kalan

[2:23:27] I've got to watch it.

[2:23:28] I've heard such good things and I've been trying to keep myself from hearing much about it.

[2:23:31] That's why you should just –

Stuart Wellington

[2:23:32] Are they remaking it or did that already happen?

[2:23:35] There was a sequel.

Evan Dorkin

[2:23:37] There was a COVID sequel.

[2:23:39] They got the cast together and put them in character and made a film shot online of all dealing with each other.

[2:23:52] But it's a film that I'm surprised still hasn't penetrated more than – because there are so many ways to grapple with it.

[2:24:03] But I think one of the reasons it hasn't is because people really keep the secret.

[2:24:08] Yeah.

[2:24:08] Whenever I talk to people who I know who like film, I'm surprised that more people haven't seen it.

[2:24:14] But generally it's a movie where you don't want to know.

[2:24:17] And so people – reviews don't really give you much reason.

[2:24:21] Yeah.

[2:24:21] Oh, you got – basically you're selling a car with a tarp over it.

[2:24:25] Trust.

[2:24:26] Trust.

[2:24:27] Well, it's like religion.

[2:24:29] Trust me.

[2:24:29] It'll all work out.

[2:24:30] Trust me.

[2:24:31] But you got to go through all this – you might have to go through all this shit first or you just don't trust it.

[2:24:34] But One Cut of the Dead is one of my favorite recent – fairly recent movies.

[2:24:40] And I recommend it to everyone.

[2:24:42] But it's hard because you're like, no, you got to watch it and I can't talk about it.

[2:24:46] I'm like, okay.

[2:24:47] Well –

Stuart Wellington

[2:24:47] It's only 96 minutes.

Elliott Kalan

[2:24:49] I think I'm going to watch it next.

[2:24:50] Not rated.

Stuart Wellington

[2:24:51] So, Dan, that's perfect for you.

Elliott Kalan

[2:24:53] Yeah.

[2:24:54] I finally last night just started watching a movie that was a movie of my choice and not Flophouse choice.

[2:25:02] And so when I finished that one –

[2:25:03] It's got to feel good, right?

[2:25:04] It felt so good that I could finally watch this Czech comedy from the 70s that's a parody of American pulp mystery novels from the beginning of the 20th century.

[2:25:12] Oh, oh.

Evan Dorkin

[2:25:13] It's on Tubi, right?

Elliott Kalan

[2:25:15] Yeah, yeah.

[2:25:15] It's on Tubi.

[2:25:16] It's like Della hasn't had supper yet or something like that.

[2:25:17] Yeah.

Evan Dorkin

[2:25:17] I watched one of the other films and I'm dying to see Della.

[2:25:20] I watched the –

[2:25:23] Was it The Castle in the Carpathian?

[2:25:25] The Castle.

[2:25:26] The Mysterious Castle in the Carpathian.

Elliott Kalan

[2:25:28] I haven't watched that one yet and I really want to.

[2:25:30] But the same guy did a movie called Lemonade Joe that I recommended on the episode, which I loved.

Evan Dorkin

[2:25:33] There's a trio of films, the same villain – the guy plays the villain in all three films, the same guy.

[2:25:37] I didn't realize how dork is podcasting.

[2:25:40] The Carpathian is a –

[2:25:43] It's the only –

[2:25:44] One of two Jules Verne –

[2:25:46] It's a Jules Verne book.

[2:25:48] And it's the driest comedy.

[2:25:51] And I laughed my ass off through it.

[2:25:53] I just found it –

[2:25:55] It's droll and weird and it's steampunky.

[2:25:59] But it doesn't call attention to itself.

[2:26:01] It doesn't –

[2:26:02] It's very –

[2:26:03] It's like if –

[2:26:03] It's like if Terry Gilliam had restraint.

Elliott Kalan

[2:26:10] Would he be Terry Gilliam then?

Evan Dorkin

[2:26:12] I don't know and I don't care.

[2:26:14] He can eat my underwear.

[2:26:15] But –

[2:26:16] You heard it here, folks.

[2:26:19] No, no.

[2:26:20] I was going to watch that next, but I'm going to watch One Call of the Dead.

[2:26:22] But the Carpathian film was hilarious.

[2:26:25] And I'm dying to –

[2:26:26] I just haven't been in a mood to watch the other two because they're not slapsticky.

[2:26:32] They're almost like droll slapstick.

[2:26:34] People aren't smashing into each other.

[2:26:36] But the art direction is –

[2:26:38] I mean I laughed at this film just from like art direction.

[2:26:42] You know, there's one scene where they just show an entrance to a –

[2:26:45] to the mysterious castle and I laughed because it was just so oddball.

[2:26:50] But it's –

[2:26:50] And it's also a great-looking film.

[2:26:51] I don't know how the other ones are, but I –

Elliott Kalan

[2:26:53] The other ones look good too.

[2:26:54] I mean the Lemonade Joe looks like a –

[2:26:56] almost like a silent western.

[2:26:58] Yeah.

[2:26:58] But it looks –

[2:26:58] But like they pull it off.

Evan Dorkin

[2:26:59] But I love the idea that he made like a Jules Verne steampunk.

[2:27:02] He made a western and a pulp.

[2:27:05] And I only –

[2:27:06] I forget where the mother country where he's from is.

[2:27:09] It's just an –

[2:27:10] What an odd choice.

[2:27:11] Yeah, it's Czechoslovakian.

[2:27:12] Yeah, what an odd choice.

[2:27:13] And then he was able to make a triptych is worth looking –

[2:27:18] you know, just fascinating because, you know,

[2:27:20] the government didn't shoot him, I don't know, for something.

Stuart Wellington

[2:27:23] Yeah.

[2:27:24] But that's what I was like.

[2:27:25] You're incensing teenagers.

[2:27:28] Yeah.

[2:27:28] I love the fact that the Tubi has this.

Elliott Kalan

[2:27:31] I mean Tubi is amazing.

[2:27:32] It's got such a great library.

Evan Dorkin

[2:27:35] You can sponsor us, Tubi.

Elliott Kalan

[2:27:36] Yeah, Tubi.

[2:27:37] Were you afraid of sponsoring us?

Evan Dorkin

[2:27:38] Tubi is the only streaming service that I – it's my first go-to.

[2:27:41] And I'm like – it's got all this horror that I love.

[2:27:44] A lot of comfort horror.

[2:27:46] Messiah of Evil and things like that.

[2:27:50] And all this giallo.

[2:27:53] And it has good stuff.

[2:27:55] I mean it actually has good films too.

[2:27:57] Stuff that you used to be able to only find if you went to the Thalia.

[2:28:00] You know, you had to go to Manhattan and go to the –

[2:28:02] That's where I watch my Jim and the Holograms episodes.

[2:28:06] Yeah.

[2:28:06] And it's got great stuff too.

[2:28:08] And they've got – yeah.

[2:28:09] They've got like multiple seasons of Kamen Rider and Ultraman.

[2:28:12] I'm like – that's all I need practically.

Elliott Kalan

[2:28:16] This was – it's dangerous though because they have like – they have an extensive collection of Doctor Who episodes.

[2:28:21] And I'm like, is this the year I get into Doctor Who?

Evan Dorkin

[2:28:24] Yeah.

[2:28:25] I'm a recent Doctor Who convert for making fun of my friends for liking it.

[2:28:29] And I'm sitting there going through the Pertwee era, going through the – it's charming garbage.

[2:28:35] I mean there's nothing funnier than watching a guy in an alien get up that involves a frogman's outfit.

[2:28:43] And he trips on his flippers and they keep it.

[2:28:46] I mean the sets move.

[2:28:48] And all at that breakneck BBC pace.

[2:28:53] Yeah.

[2:28:53] I mean it's just – I actually find myself really enjoying it on multiple levels because I'm like it's funny, goofy stuff.

[2:29:00] It's amiable as hell.

[2:29:02] They're taking it – it's cheap and dirty and fast television making.

[2:29:09] They don't really know what they're doing.

[2:29:12] But they're also – but the actors are all taking it extremely seriously.

[2:29:15] Yeah.

[2:29:16] And the thing is it has a sense of humor.

[2:29:18] It has always had a sense of humor about it.

[2:29:21] But then you get to see Gene Marsh show up in five – looking awesome in fascist soldiers outfit.

[2:29:28] I mean it's just – the actors that show up are also interesting.

[2:29:32] So I guess –

[2:29:32] It's got that Twilight Zone out of limits, Alfred Hitchcock out.

Elliott Kalan

[2:29:35] Yeah, so this is the year I get into Doctor Who.

[2:29:38] Well, we've talked enough about Tubi.

[2:29:39] Evan, would you like to tell us again about your book that you have out?

[2:29:43] Let's promote – what would you like to promote?

Evan Dorkin

[2:29:45] Well, if any of my jokes landed for you today, you might like my cartooning because it's very pop culture saturated.

[2:29:54] It's very much like me.

[2:29:56] It goes on too long and there's plenty of it.

[2:29:58] But Nerd Inferno is available at better comic shops, at bookshops.

[2:30:05] I don't like plugging Amazon, but if that's where you have to get stuff, not everybody has a comic shop, obviously.

[2:30:12] I mean I think you have like a scrimshaw.

[2:30:15] You might have a scrimshaw shop more easily than you have a comic shop in your neighborhood unless you're –

Elliott Kalan

[2:30:20] But I ordered it through my local independent bookstore.

[2:30:23] Good for you, man.

[2:30:24] Seriously, good for you.

Evan Dorkin

[2:30:25] So yeah.

[2:30:25] That way they get a dime and I get a nickel.

Dan McCoy

[2:30:29] Yeah, and stores will do that for you.

[2:30:32] Yeah.

[2:30:33] People don't talk about it much, but if you don't want to support a big possibly evil retailer.

Evan Dorkin

[2:30:39] I go through my local comic shop.

[2:30:41] I try never – I don't personally buy things through Amazon.

[2:30:45] But a lot of people who are – who have found Eltingville in the last couple of years, a lot of them do not have –

[2:30:51] I mean they're in other countries and they do not have access to a bookstore, a comic store, let alone one that sells English work.

[2:30:59] So I mean Barnes & Noble, you can go through Books A Million and local bookshops and things like that.

[2:31:09] Or you can pirate it, torrent it.

[2:31:12] That's what your kids do.

[2:31:14] If you like it, throw me a dime.

[2:31:17] Throw me a dime.

[2:31:17] There's that podcast, dude.

[2:31:18] Yeah.

[2:31:19] And again –

[2:31:20] I've been doing – I've been writing horror stories for the EC Comics revival, Catacomba Torment.

[2:31:27] I've got a third story just came out in the collections of that.

[2:31:30] That's from Oni Press and EC Comics.

[2:31:35] And my stuff's been getting reprinted.

[2:31:37] I'm old enough that DC just did the Superman Adventures, big books of that.

[2:31:42] World's Funnest has been reprinted multiple times somewhat recently at DC.

[2:31:48] The Deadpool stuff that I sort of did – it's a long story.

[2:31:51] It's not really Deadpool, but it is Deadpool.

[2:31:55] It has been reprinted.

[2:31:56] My Predator work has been reprinted.

[2:31:58] Things keep recycling the same way that Vinegar Syndrome or whoever keeps putting out weird old stuff.

Stuart Wellington

[2:32:04] What about your Bill and Ted books?

Evan Dorkin

[2:32:06] Bill and Ted books, I don't know if they're still in print, but the Bill and Ted run from Marvel was put out by Boom a couple of years ago.

[2:32:15] There's a hardcover that's out there.

Elliott Kalan

[2:32:16] I think that's the collection I have, yeah.

Evan Dorkin

[2:32:17] The softcover collection might be there too.

[2:32:19] I don't make anything on that, but I still promote it because I'm happy with the work.

Elliott Kalan

[2:32:22] I mean I stole it.

[2:32:24] You did?

[2:32:25] No, no.

[2:32:25] I mean I bought it.

[2:32:25] No, no.

[2:32:26] I don't.

Evan Dorkin

[2:32:26] Please.

[2:32:27] I don't.

[2:32:28] What are you going to do, right?

[2:32:29] I mean we're all – oh, I've never watched a movie that my friend Paul downloaded from somewhere.

[2:32:35] We didn't all watch – we didn't all watch – we weren't all watching anime Ghibli films in the 80s that were on VHS and you could barely see what was happening or anything like that.

[2:32:45] You know, let's be honest about it.

[2:32:47] I mean I know if you don't have the money, do what you got to do, but give an artist a buck, do something for another artist or myself.

[2:32:55] That's all.

[2:32:55] Spread it around.

Stuart Wellington

[2:32:56] Certainly don't use AI.

[2:32:58] I think we can all agree.

Evan Dorkin

[2:32:59] Yeah, I just – I did a talk with an art class from CalArts yesterday and it ended on a big – and I was very glad to see all these little messages coming up.

[2:33:11] You know, fuck AI.

[2:33:13] It's a thief.

[2:33:14] It's a world killer.

[2:33:15] It's putting money into the worst people's pockets and it's just awful.

[2:33:19] It doesn't even produce good work.

[2:33:21] You know?

[2:33:22] It's just – it's blue balls.

Stuart Wellington

[2:33:26] It's like the least nourishing fast food option.

Evan Dorkin

[2:33:30] Yeah, and we're all paying – and it will make you sick eventually because it's making people sick.

[2:33:33] I mean you really are pressing a button to poison somebody's sit down when you do that.

[2:33:39] I mean it sounds crazy.

[2:33:40] It sounds like something out of Dreamcatcher, but you really are fucking up the environment and people's lives and stealing people's work, writing, art, and money.

[2:33:48] And it's just – it's contemptuous garbage and it's a shame that when the – I'm looking forward to the bubble finally popping, but it's going to be an economic nightmare because so many idiots have bet the house on this.

[2:34:03] And on that cheery note, please buy my comic book before we all die because that's what you need.

Dan McCoy

[2:34:11] It will help ferry you across the river.

Elliott Kalan

[2:34:17] You need those two coins.

[2:34:18] Yes, you can –

Dan McCoy

[2:34:21] In comics, that's about what your royalties will be.

[2:34:24] Two coins.

[2:34:24] I don't know what more perfect note for a chat with Evan Dorkin we can end on.

[2:34:29] They're both Canadian nickels.

[2:34:32] At least you got a beaver.

Elliott Kalan

[2:34:33] Oh, because Charon said, oh, you want to get across the river, eh?

[2:34:36] Oh, okay.

Dan McCoy

[2:34:37] Now we're back to the beave.

[2:34:39] You know, before we go, we should thank our network, Maximum Fun, whom you should also support because they're not AI or putting money in some bad person's pocket.

[2:34:53] You should say thanks, as we do, to Alex Smith, our producer.

[2:34:58] He goes by the name Howell Doughty on the internet where he does music and comedy and streams and all sorts of stuff.

[2:35:05] But for this episode of The Flophouse, I've been Dan McCoy.

[2:35:08] I'm Stuart Wellington.

Elliott Kalan

[2:35:10] I'm Elliot Kalin, and we've been joined by –

[2:35:13] Hello?

Evan Dorkin

[2:35:14] Evan Dorkin.

[2:35:16] We've been joined by Evan –

[2:35:16] Oops, sorry.

[2:35:17] The feed froze, and then Elliot's voice came out like he was on helium on the –

[2:35:22] Sure.

[2:35:23] It's pretty normal.

Stuart Wellington

[2:35:24] Just say your name.

[2:35:26] So, your name, Evan Dorkin.

[2:35:30] Perfect.

[2:35:38] So, we're going to do a quick intro, and then we are going to introduce ourselves, and then Elliot will introduce you, Evan.

[2:35:44] Yes.

[2:35:45] Oh, my goodness.

[2:35:46] So, be prepared.

[2:35:47] He is not going to be kind.

[2:35:50] Okay.

[2:35:50] That's fine.

[2:35:51] That's fine.

[2:35:52] I don't blame him because I know what I did to you guys.

[2:35:54] Yeah.

[2:35:54] It's a real gotcha, I guess.

[2:35:55] What is your name?

[2:35:56] I understand why you might have –

[2:35:59] The unofficial roast of Evan Dorkin.

[2:36:00] Have any of you seen this before?

[2:36:03] Yes.

[2:36:03] Oh, I've seen it multiple times before.

[2:36:05] Oh, God.

[2:36:05] I'm so sorry.

[2:36:06] My wife watched it with me, and when I woke up in the morning, she was gone.

[2:36:13] Maximum Fun.

[2:36:14] A worker-owned network.

[2:36:16] Of artists-owned shows.

[2:36:18] Supported.

[2:36:18] Directly.

[2:36:19] By you.

Dreamcatcher, with Evan Dorkin

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