The Flop House on The Novelizers

[0:00] Hey, it's Dan here just with a brief message about what you're about to hear

[0:04] This is a feed drop of another podcast, but never fear. It is filled with flop house content

[0:09] So it's got a thing that I wrote for John Hodgman to read the first written comedy

[0:17] I've done for John Hodgman since our old days working together on the Daily Show with Jon Stewart

[0:22] It also has me and Elliot doing some improv

[0:26] In character at length a thing that we do not do on our own show. So I hope you enjoy it here

[0:32] You know what the show itself explains its premise right up at the top way better than I will ever be able to

[0:39] But I just wanted to sort of explain why it was here. We did a little crossover. It's about the matrix

[0:45] We did an episode about the matrix and we thought you guys would enjoy

[0:49] Hearing the stuff that Elliot and I did for this other show

[0:53] Today on the show a very special crossover episode with the flop house podcast blast John Hodgman. It's the novelizer

[1:23] And nothing to see

[1:33] Hi, I'm your host Christine Bullen here with Steven Levinson and Kevin Carter welcoming you to the novelizers a podcast

[1:40] Where we take classic films get TV comedy writers from shows like SML the IT crowd the Daily Show Colbert and more

[1:46] To turn them into full-length audio books

[1:49] Then we get a different actor or comedian like JK Simmons Wayne Brady will Forte Rachel Dratch

[1:55] Ira Glass Jake Johnson Matt Mercer and more to narrate each chapter this season

[2:00] We're novelizing the matrix and this episode we're doing something special. See it turns out. We're not the only movie podcast on the Internet

[2:07] That's right. There's also another one

[2:09] It's called the flop house podcast and it's hilarious

[2:12] The host Elliot Kaelin Dan McCoy and Stuart Wellington get together and talk about movies that maybe didn't do as well as the creators had

[2:19] Hoped or as we call those in the business flops. Whoa

[2:23] Look slow down slow down. So like they don't novelize movies. I don't get it

[2:29] Yeah, it's crazy. But somehow it works

[2:32] Anyway, we invited Dan and Elliot to come on our show and help us novelize the matrix

[2:36] But before we hear that Kevin catch us up on where we are in the film

[2:40] Morpheus tells Neil that it's not

[2:43] 1999 but it's more closer to

[2:46] 2199 he shows Neil around the Nebuchadnezzar ship

[2:49] Introducing the crew and before he shows Neil what the matrix is

[2:53] He gets stuck in the back of his head and is put into the construct which is actually a computer program

[2:58] He didn't shows Neil what he thinks the world is and what the world actually looks like

[3:02] Neil sees the truth and immediately wants out. Thanks Kevin

[3:06] Now here's the Flophouse podcast Dan McCoy who also wrote for The Daily Show for over a decade

[3:11] He's novelizing a chapter narrated by John Hodgman star of the judge John Hodgman podcast

[3:17] Dicktown on FX Hulu and books like vacation land and medallion status John Hodgman

[3:23] novelize us

[3:25] The matrix chapter 9 kung fu tussle

[3:30] novelized by Dan McCoy

[3:31] narrated by John Hodgman

[3:34] Neil woke up from the computer simulation in a cold sweat like a formerly successful writer whose career had been reduced to novelizing

[3:42] hit movies of the past

[3:44] Who are all you people?

[3:46] He yelled at the crew of the Nebuchadnezzar and why are you all dressed in artfully torn oversized sweaters?

[3:52] Like a bunch of Chris Evans's from Knives Out

[3:55] Neil laughed hysterically at his own anachronistic joke, which proved to be a mistake as his meatspace body soon gasped for air

[4:04] Breathe Morpheus suggested helpfully as if that wasn't currently number one on his priority list

[4:10] Neil collapsed to the ground expelling the curdled milk from his mouth that he'd been saving in his cheek to enjoy later

[4:16] I guess suddenly the camera focus went all blurry which Neo took as his cue to pass out

[4:22] He awoke sometime later like a detective in an old pulp novel

[4:26] Who was always quote awaking sometime later as if there's no way to check a goddamn clock

[4:31] He lay on a bed that definitely 100% was full of bedbugs

[4:36] Everything's so grimy in the real world. He thought where do real-world people buy these linens and itchy sweaters bed burlap and beyond

[4:46] Morpheus sat in the shadows next to him. Apparently one of those creeps who likes to watch people while they're sleeping

[4:51] I better let him know I'm awake Neo thought before he starts taking pictures

[4:57] He ventured a question I can't go back can I you can't go home again said Morpheus

[5:04] Quoting the author Thomas Wolfe who I bet never had to novelize any goddamn movies just to earn enough to buy his family frozen peas

[5:12] I'm thinking

[5:14] Neo lay on his side staring away from Morpheus and the traditional position for all young people getting lectured by dad

[5:21] Neo, I'm sorry. I made an oopsie

[5:25] Normally, we don't wake someone's mind up once they're past a certain age. It's hard on them. It can cause a condition we call

[5:33] mindus explodus

[5:35] You know when that would have been useful information, you know thought when you were handing out the magic pills

[5:42] Anyway, let's chalk that one up in the my bad column

[5:47] Morpheus paused in a way a person does who's about to justify their actions

[5:52] Since you're in bed already

[5:54] Let me tell you a story

[5:56] He handed Neo a glass of warm milk that he had scraped up from the floor where Neo had left it

[6:02] Once upon a time there was this guy who could see that he was in the matrix

[6:07] He was the first to wake people up

[6:10] Neo started to zone out the way he always did whenever someone started explaining their religious beliefs

[6:16] He started to count little bits of bed bug poop. He saw on the sheets

[6:21] I'll spare you the irrelevant details of how

[6:24] one nude guy in a pot of gloop

[6:27] Could possibly manage to wake other people up or how they could then build complex airships that have the ability to jack into

[6:34] the matrix

[6:36] Morpheus troned on Neo wondered when the chemtrails and fluoride would come in

[6:42] His name was Ketsuko Wattle or Q for short a great man

[6:48] He saved us all from the mind virus and taught us that people we thought were fellow humans were just

[6:55] NPCs

[6:56] We believed we were woke, but only he could wake

[7:01] the mumble

[7:03] Morpheus's voice faded out as Neo drifted off to sleep an hour later

[7:08] Neo woke up just in time to hear Morpheus say and that's why it's okay to shoot other people

[7:14] Because they don't have souls the end

[7:17] Normally Neo would panic that he'd missed something important while dozing but to be honest

[7:22] It was a pretty standard chosen one narrative. So he had gotten the gist

[7:27] basically, the deal was there was a magic dude long ago who had borrowed a page from Jesus's playbook and died and

[7:34] Now because of some prophecy by an Oracle named in a kind of first thought kind of way. Let's be honest the Oracle

[7:42] Morpheus was convinced that the one was gonna be resurrected any day now

[7:48] Oh shit, Neo thought

[7:50] Does this guy think I'm his Messiah now just because Neo is an anagram for one that would be dumb

[7:57] But he kept his doubts with him on the surface. He just smiled at Morpheus and said cool story, bro

[8:03] Morpheus smiled back. It is cool broseph

[8:06] He said tis the coolest story ever told he arose and looked at Neo with an expression straight from the dictionary definition

[8:14] of portentous

[8:16] He asked are you ready?

[8:20] For what?

[8:22] Neo responded with barely controlled panic

[8:24] he looked around the room for pictures of Kool-Aid or a pile of Xerox pamphlets or worst of all a

[8:31] baptismal your training Morpheus said and then left the room leaving Neo to wonder

[8:38] Am I supposed to like follow you or what? Like I've been through a lot today and then he drifted back to sleep

[8:45] That evening Neo sat on the floor enjoying a petty ball seizure from the Nebuchadnezzar's constantly flickering lights a

[8:53] Muscular man who was certainly large enough to be imposing but nowhere near as large as a tank

[8:59] Walked in with the cockiness of the sort of movie actor who would demand a pay raise so large that his role would be recast

[9:04] If for instance that movie had two sequels

[9:07] Hey, I'm tank. He said

[9:09] Extending his acceptably muscular arm to shake hands with Neo

[9:13] You don't have one of those

[9:15] Neo gestured to the back of his head where his metal matrix port was

[9:19] Brain anuses or brain asses as we call them. Nope

[9:24] Me and my brother were 100% born in the real world

[9:28] Neo wasn't really digging the star belly snitches are the best snitches on the beaches energy

[9:32] This dude was bringing but he ignored it as the decidedly non tank-sized man continued

[9:38] I'm a genuine child of Zion

[9:41] Zion

[9:42] Neo asked politely. Oh, man, it's rad. It's the last human city and it's like

[9:49] You ever go to a rave under a bunch of stalactites. It's so bitchin. Don't worry

[9:54] You'll see it for yourself in like half a movie. My band's playing this weekend

[10:00] He handed Neo a flyer for his band, Tank Skankers.

[10:03] It's kind of like Ska Electric Clash, but we also hit big gongs.

[10:09] Thanks, Neo said, mentally throwing the flyer in the trash.

[10:14] And why are you here?

[10:17] I'm here to stick my thing in your brain and upgrade your software.

[10:21] Moments later, Neo found himself in a sort of steampunk dentist chair as tanks

[10:26] shuffled through some computer disks.

[10:28] Let's see, Encarta 97, Leisure Suit Larry in the Land of the Lounge Lizards.

[10:33] Ah, here we go.

[10:35] Fighting for dummies.

[10:37] He jacked Neo in, and the Chosen One shook as he had his first braingasm.

[10:42] Countless fighting styles flooded his neurons.

[10:45] Jiu-jitsu, Jeet Kune Do, Wing Chun, Wang Chun, Brazilian dance fighting,

[10:52] Brazilian wax fighting, foxy boxing.

[10:55] That thing where you have a friend get on their hands and knees behind someone

[10:58] and then you push them over.

[11:00] The information coursed through Neo's brain, the ultimate power fantasy of

[11:05] getting to be really cool and good at something without ever having to

[11:09] actually practice.

[11:10] His eyes sprang open to meet the gaze of Morpheus, who had yet again wandered

[11:15] in to stare creepily at Neo while he was unconscious.

[11:18] I know Kung Fu, Neo said.

[11:21] And also Kung Fu, the legend continues.

[11:24] Whoa.

[11:25] Morpheus smiled, happy to see that he'd indoctrinated Neo into his little

[11:29] violence club.

[11:31] Well, let's see it.

[11:33] Grasshopper, he said.

[11:35] Suddenly, the two of them found themselves in a spacious, airy dojo.

[11:39] This is a sparring program, Morpheus said.

[11:42] It has rules similar to reality, but you can bend the rules a bit.

[11:46] Sort of like corrupt Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas.

[11:50] Neo nodded, understanding.

[11:52] Okay, then, Neo, hit me with your best shot.

[11:55] Fire away.

[11:59] Neo yelled and waved his arms around in a way that anyone writing a

[12:02] novelization of a movie would definitely not be getting paid enough to

[12:06] adequately describe.

[12:07] Seriously.

[12:08] Like, what are you supposed to do with an action scene here?

[12:10] Describe every punch?

[12:11] You've seen Kung Fu movies before.

[12:13] You figure it out.

[12:14] All right.

[12:15] Anyway, even though he was doing a really good job at punching, it was no

[12:18] match at how good Morpheus was at punching.

[12:21] And then once Neo saw how good his mentor could punch, he backed off and

[12:24] he gave a little smile, as if to say, oh, I see.

[12:27] And then he ran up Morpheus's chest, kicking him and defying gravity like

[12:32] some kind of wirefoo Looney Tunes character.

[12:35] But it turned out that Morpheus was good at kicking, too.

[12:38] So kicking-wise, it was also kind of a draw.

[12:41] But if you were seeing this rather than having it described to you, it

[12:45] would look totally cool.

[12:46] Back on the ship, a character whose name I would have learned if the

[12:49] publishers had met my quote, ran into the mess hall yelling, Fight!

[12:52] Fight!

[12:52] And everyone ran to watch, like, uh, a fight?

[12:54] I gotta see this!

[12:56] Even though, presumably, training happened all the time?

[12:58] But, whatever, I get it.

[13:00] The only entertainment on the Nebuchadnezzar was, like, one copy of

[13:03] Parcheesi that survived the apocalypse.

[13:05] And if they wanted to watch TV, the only streaming service they got was

[13:08] Crackle.

[13:09] Can you imagine?

[13:09] Crackle.

[13:10] Gross.

[13:11] Meanwhile, back in the Danger Room, Neo and Morpheus were doing a bunch of

[13:15] cool-looking stuff.

[13:16] Like, at one point, Neo ran up a wooden beam and flipped over, as if to

[13:20] say, Eat my ass, Donald O'Connor and Scene in the Rain.

[13:23] And then Morpheus gave a look and said, That don't depressa me much.

[13:27] And he kicked Neo into another wooden beam, breaking it, as if to say,

[13:30] Cool it with the wooden beams, dude.

[13:32] The older man walked calmly toward the battered Neo to Morpheusplain

[13:36] Neo's failure.

[13:38] You think I'm winning cause I'm stronger than you?

[13:40] There are no muscles in the Matrix.

[13:42] There's no air that you're breathing.

[13:44] There's no spoon.

[13:46] Sorry, that line comes later.

[13:47] And then he casually kicked Neo in the face.

[13:50] It's all in your head, man.

[13:53] His words had the intended effect on Neo, who cranked his inner remote

[13:57] control to double time, like the way you're probably listening to this

[14:00] podcast, so you can finish in the bathroom before your supervisor

[14:02] notices you're not at your desk.

[14:04] And Neo did basically the same punching he was doing before, but this time

[14:08] really fast.

[14:09] And turns out, fast punching was a winning strategy.

[14:13] And Neo soon had Morpheus cornered up against his old nemesis, a wooden

[14:16] beam.

[14:17] Neo growled.

[14:18] I know what you're trying to do.

[14:21] Morpheus shot back.

[14:23] I'm trying to free your mind.

[14:25] Free your mind?

[14:26] And the rest will follow.

[14:27] Before you can read me, you've got to learn how to see me.

[14:31] And then he turned his eyes skyward to address the ship.

[14:34] Tank, load the jumpy thingy.

[14:37] Suddenly, the two men were atop a skyscraper, and Morpheus was wearing

[14:40] a leather duster and strapless goggles, which, unlike when you wear that

[14:44] stuff, looked really cool.

[14:46] You gotta let it all go.

[14:47] Neo.

[14:48] Doubt, fear, YOLO.

[14:51] You know?

[14:52] Then Morpheus ran toward the side of the roof and jumped high in the air

[14:56] all the way to the next building with a girlish weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

[15:01] Whoa, Neo said in a manner that could only be described as Keanu-esque.

[15:06] His duster looks awesome when he does that.

[15:09] Neo backed up to get a running start.

[15:11] OK, Mr. Anderson, he muttered to himself.

[15:14] It's time to make the doughnuts.

[15:17] Back on the ship, watching the action, Trinity bit her lip.

[15:20] Hornily.

[15:22] This was her favorite part.

[15:23] The jumping.

[15:25] Neo sped toward the edge.

[15:27] Weeeeeeeeeee!

[15:28] Woooooooooooooo!

[15:31] He yelled as he absolutely biffed it hard.

[15:34] It was embarrassing.

[15:35] Neo plunged toward the hard concrete below.

[15:38] While Trinity gave a look that indicated that her horniness levels had plunged.

[15:42] In a manner not unlike Neo.

[15:44] Off a building.

[15:46] Fortunately, the concrete had been animated by Chuck Jones.

[15:49] So Neo bounced off it.

[15:51] Weeeeeeeee!

[15:52] He said despondently.

[15:53] Everyone fails the first time, Cypher said,

[15:56] showing a lot of empathy for a guy who's probably about to be revealed as a villain pretty soon.

[16:01] Right, Trin?

[16:01] Trin?

[16:02] But Trinity had already left to go to the next scene.

[16:06] Thank you, John Hodgman.

[16:08] Each week we talk to someone who actually worked behind the scenes on the actual film,

[16:13] The Matrix, and this week is no exception.

[16:15] Let's roll that interview.

[16:18] All right.

[16:19] I am here with the special stunt support team for the film, The Matrix.

[16:24] I have Elliot Kalin and Dan McCoy here.

[16:26] Hi, Elliot and Dan.

[16:27] How are you guys today?

[16:28] Oh, very well.

[16:29] Thank you.

[16:29] Yeah, great.

[16:30] Thank you so much for having us.

[16:31] Yeah.

[16:32] So special stunt support team.

[16:35] Tell me a little bit about what you did for the film.

[16:37] I'm not even sure what that means.

[16:38] This is a role that is in-

[16:41] It's used more and more in movies now,

[16:42] but it was pretty new around the time that The Matrix was produced,

[16:46] when we were brought on board for it.

[16:48] And that is, you notice that in The Matrix, there's a lot of,

[16:50] what you'd call, I guess, special stunt choreography.

[16:52] A lot of jumps where someone has to hang in the air for quite a while,

[16:56] or the scene where Keanu Reeves bends over backwards very far.

[17:01] And those scenes take an incredible toll on the muscles of a performer's body.

[17:06] In some cases, they are impossible to actually hold your body in that position

[17:11] for that amount of time on your own.

[17:12] And so Dan and I, our job was to literally be kind of like the organic pedestals,

[17:19] I guess you could say, to hold them up,

[17:22] to keep them in that position for the extent of the shot.

[17:25] For instance, early in the movie,

[17:26] Carrie Ann Moss, she jumps in the air.

[17:28] The camera spins around her.

[17:29] She's in the air the entire time.

[17:31] Nobody can do that.

[17:32] Yeah, that's impossible.

[17:33] Come on.

[17:34] It's impossible.

[17:35] It's science fictional that someone would be able to do something like that.

[17:37] So I was literally the one who kind of held her up during that time.

[17:42] That's not an actual jump.

[17:43] That's me lifting her up above my head,

[17:45] and then holding her in that position while the camera spins.

[17:48] And then using technology that was very new at the time,

[17:51] they just paintbrush me out.

[17:53] And it's seamless.

[17:53] You don't even know I was there, but I'm there holding her up.

[17:56] And similarly, Dan, do you want to talk about

[17:59] the Keanu Reeves bending over backwards full-time sequence?

[18:02] That was your specialty.

[18:03] When Keanu would bend backwards to escape those bullets,

[18:06] I would be sort of down below him,

[18:09] as one would if you were going to trip a person.

[18:12] But I'm not there to trip him.

[18:13] I'm there to provide support.

[18:14] Quite the opposite.

[18:15] The support is the important thing in the special set support team.

[18:19] We are like human exoskeletons,

[18:22] sort of muscles on the outside.

[18:25] I like to think of myself as a human puppeteer, almost,

[18:28] helping to manipulate the body so we can capture these amazing stunts.

[18:33] When it's working best,

[18:34] you're working as an extension of the actor's physical body.

[18:37] And it takes a lot of getting to know them,

[18:40] spending time with them, rehearsing with them

[18:42] to get to the point where it is just seamless,

[18:43] where you're working as one.

[18:45] And sometimes it's kind of hard to know

[18:46] when your body stops and their body starts.

[18:48] We get that close to it.

[18:50] Wow.

[18:51] I have so many questions.

[18:53] This is fascinating.

[18:54] First off, I'm silly to have assumed this,

[18:57] but I really thought that all of that was in post.

[19:02] It looks like they're levitating.

[19:04] It looks like they're held in midair,

[19:06] but that's actually something that they're creating.

[19:09] It's a visual effect they're creating in post.

[19:10] But what you're telling me is

[19:12] you were physically there holding up these bodies

[19:17] for that duration of time.

[19:19] Is that correct?

[19:20] Yes, exactly.

[19:21] Wow.

[19:22] I mean, you know what?

[19:23] If we wanted to do it for the glory,

[19:24] we would be in front of the camera.

[19:26] It's fine that you don't know that we exist.

[19:27] Well, we are in front of the camera,

[19:29] but then we're removed afterwards.

[19:30] True, true, true.

[19:31] Well, and to be honest,

[19:32] I feel like that would sort of take away from the film

[19:35] if we actually do see you holding him up or her up.

[19:38] Well, that's an argument I had with the directors.

[19:41] I thought it would be kind of interesting,

[19:43] you know, like sort of a Michel Gondry,

[19:46] you see the wires kind of thing.

[19:47] But ultimately they wanted to go in a different direction.

[19:51] Wow.

[19:51] But that's interesting.

[19:51] You actually pitched that on set

[19:53] to just stay in the film.

[19:54] They wouldn't rush you out.

[19:56] I mean, sometimes it's the art that you see,

[19:59] that you have.

[20:00] Appreciate all the more, it's the craft.

[20:02] Yeah, both of us studied Bunraku puppetry

[20:05] in which the puppeteers are visible at all times.

[20:07] They're dressed in black, they're masked,

[20:09] but they're visible on stage

[20:10] and you kind of forget that they're there

[20:12] after a certain amount of time.

[20:13] So that was Dan's big pitch to the Wachowskis

[20:16] was that eventually the audience would forget he was there.

[20:18] They'd just get so used to seeing him

[20:21] that they wouldn't even know he was there anymore.

[20:22] And that'd be in its way a more impressive illusion

[20:25] than if he wasn't there.

[20:26] And so they didn't know what they weren't seeing.

[20:28] An audience, they can't be impressed

[20:31] by what they don't know they're not seeing,

[20:33] but they can be easily impressed by what they are seeing

[20:35] and forget that they're seeing.

[20:37] An audience cannot be impressed

[20:38] by something they don't know they're not seeing.

[20:40] Wow, that is so true.

[20:42] If I don't know that there's that work going in,

[20:45] then I can't be impressed by that work.

[20:47] So what you're saying is it's almost nice

[20:49] to kind of know how much went into this

[20:51] and then you get to reveal that now that you were into it.

[20:55] So you were physically holding a body up

[20:57] for a very long time.

[20:58] And what's amazing about the work that you did,

[21:01] which is so impressive, is that they seem so still.

[21:05] They seem so still in midair.

[21:07] Or like when he's leaning back,

[21:09] his movement is so seamless.

[21:11] I can't believe that you're actually underneath him,

[21:14] holding him up because you're doing such a good job

[21:17] of making it seem like that's a skill

[21:20] that he has within this character.

[21:23] Really impressive.

[21:25] Well, thank you.

[21:26] It's very important to me that you say that,

[21:28] but it's also, it's a hard thing to do.

[21:30] I had to tell Keanu, I'm like, look,

[21:33] I don't, there's all of the weight

[21:35] that you can get off of your body right now would help me.

[21:38] You can't have your keys on set,

[21:40] can't have your phone on set.

[21:41] After several hours,

[21:43] that is gonna add so much strain to me.

[21:45] He could not get home one day

[21:47] because he couldn't find his car keys,

[21:48] but I maintain that's his problem.

[21:51] He was so willing to work with you, though.

[21:52] He didn't wear socks, he didn't wear underpants.

[21:54] Anything you do to remove just a milligram of weight

[21:57] to make the job that much easier for you,

[21:58] I really, I give him credit for that.

[22:00] That's interesting that you would have to say that to him

[22:02] about his keys and his phone.

[22:04] I didn't even know he would have had a phone

[22:06] or keys in his pocket on set.

[22:08] It's interesting you had to say that,

[22:09] but I'm so glad you did

[22:10] because it probably made your job in that moment much easier.

[22:12] Oh, so much easier.

[22:13] He's very forgetful.

[22:14] He's a very forgetful act.

[22:15] I mean, the thing is, when he's in character,

[22:16] he doesn't forget,

[22:17] but the minute he's out of character, he forgets.

[22:20] So he's like, well, where's my keys?

[22:21] Where's my phone?

[22:22] I mean, he's a very sweet guy,

[22:24] but he freaking loses them a lot.

[22:24] So he always wants to have them on him.

[22:26] So he's a special case.

[22:27] He's a special case.

[22:28] Carrie Ann, she didn't have her keys or her phone on her

[22:30] when I was picking her up for that big job.

[22:32] That feels very professional

[22:34] that she didn't have things in her pockets

[22:35] when she was filming.

[22:36] Also with the pants they were wearing often

[22:38] were too tight to really have too much in their pockets

[22:41] because-

[22:42] Especially hers, yeah.

[22:43] Yes, yes, exactly.

[22:44] And you'd see it on camera

[22:45] and sometimes they'd have to paint that out

[22:47] if she forgot that she had like,

[22:49] she went to lunch, she put the receipt in her pocket.

[22:51] She just, you know what you do.

[22:52] You just kind of stuck in your pocket.

[22:53] You're not thinking about it.

[22:54] And then you can see this kind of like bulge

[22:56] where crumpled up receipt is.

[22:57] They'd have to remove that.

[22:58] They're already removing me from so many of these scenes.

[23:01] She goes to the bank.

[23:02] She picks up a dum-dum, you know, at the teller.

[23:05] Right.

[23:06] To have sucker to have later.

[23:07] You can't have that in there.

[23:08] And it's so obvious if you have a sucker in your pocket

[23:10] and you're wearing super tight leather pants.

[23:12] Like, I mean, no,

[23:12] you're not even gonna mistake that for something else.

[23:14] Everyone knows that you went to the bank

[23:15] and you got a sucker, you know,

[23:16] and it's not professional.

[23:18] Only explanation.

[23:18] Yeah, and now they're wondering,

[23:20] did Trinity go to the bank?

[23:22] I didn't see that scene.

[23:23] Is the bank in the matrix world or is it in our world,

[23:26] which is also kind of the matrix world?

[23:28] It raises a lot of questions.

[23:30] And so then it's gotta be painted out.

[23:32] And that's more money that gets spent in the budget.

[23:34] That's more money that could go to painting out people

[23:36] rather than painting out things.

[23:38] This is such an interesting role.

[23:39] And this is the first I've ever heard of this role

[23:41] existing on a set.

[23:43] Are there other films that you two have worked on

[23:45] where you've provided this kind of assistance to the film?

[23:48] We actually work a lot.

[23:50] Especially the introduction of the Marvel superhero movies

[23:53] has been fantastic.

[23:54] So those characters are always jumping and flying

[23:56] and doing stuff like that.

[23:57] And so we do a lot of that.

[24:00] We do a lot of those newest Star Wars movies.

[24:03] When Yoda was jumping around in the,

[24:06] I forget which prequel it was.

[24:07] I think the third one.

[24:09] That was a lot of me having to like pick him up

[24:12] and twist him around on set.

[24:15] And we did a lot of work in the Country Bears movie

[24:18] that came out a while back,

[24:21] not too long after The Matrix.

[24:22] Because this was the costumes were very heavy.

[24:24] And so the actors were just having trouble

[24:27] standing up in them.

[24:28] So you'd see, so Dan and I would be kind of leaning on them

[24:31] just to keep them standing up straight.

[24:33] You know, not big stunts,

[24:35] just helping them out with the costumes.

[24:37] Human buttresses is kind of the way I viewed our work

[24:41] on that one.

[24:41] I remember on the set,

[24:42] on the set we called ourselves the bear-tresses,

[24:44] which was very funny.

[24:45] We were the bear-tresses.

[24:46] It was pretty cute.

[24:47] We had some jackets that said that.

[24:48] I love that.

[24:50] You know, I have to say,

[24:51] you must both be very, very strong.

[24:54] You would think, but I'm quite a weak man.

[24:57] And honestly, I'm not sure how much longer

[25:00] I can stay in this business

[25:03] or frankly, why I still get hired

[25:06] because I have to take a lot of breaks.

[25:09] I would imagine.

[25:10] I mean, but that's not even like,

[25:12] look, I have a three-year-old daughter

[25:14] and I have a hard time holding her up.

[25:16] I can't even imagine holding a grown human person

[25:20] above my head in a very still position

[25:23] for an extended amount of time

[25:24] and not feeling quite overwhelmed.

[25:27] Yes.

[25:28] Well, that's when the training kicks in.

[25:29] That's when the breathing.

[25:30] Yeah, it's important to look at your breathing

[25:32] and to control it that way.

[25:33] But it does take enormous wear and tear on your body.

[25:35] You know, there are times when I'll be at home

[25:38] and I have to carry groceries

[25:39] and I just feel the pain all up and down

[25:41] the right side of my body, especially.

[25:43] And my wife was like,

[25:44] oh, you can pick up Chris Evans,

[25:45] but you can't pick up these groceries.

[25:47] And I'm like, you don't understand,

[25:48] when I'm on set, it's like another person is helping.

[25:50] It's like the spirit of everyone

[25:52] who's ever worked on a film is kind of inhabiting me

[25:57] and helping me with that strength.

[25:58] I kind of don't realize it

[25:58] because I'm performing, you know, in that moment.

[26:00] But when in regular life, it's very hard.

[26:02] It really does take a toll.

[26:04] And, you know, arthritis is a major problem

[26:06] for people in our line of work,

[26:07] as is, you know, muscle boredom.

[26:09] It's called when your muscles get,

[26:12] they get tired of being in one position,

[26:14] not just physically, but also kind of emotionally.

[26:16] It's very difficult.

[26:17] Oh, that's so interesting.

[26:18] That's so funny, I've heard of the term muscle memory,

[26:20] but I've never heard of muscle boredom.

[26:22] Oh yeah, the muscle has an enormous amount

[26:24] of cognitive function that you don't often hear about.

[26:27] And the flip side of that muscle memory

[26:28] is, of course, muscle boredom, yeah.

[26:30] Wow, that's so interesting.

[26:31] So were there days

[26:32] where you didn't have a lot to do on set?

[26:34] Maybe days where you were there,

[26:36] but they weren't shooting things

[26:37] where they needed a human body holding another human body?

[26:40] Well, we did some other work on set

[26:42] and honestly, it was kind of an offshoot

[26:43] of our primary work.

[26:45] We were also responsible for polishing

[26:48] all of the black leather

[26:50] that was such a big part of the Matrix costuming.

[26:54] And you can imagine holding up people,

[26:57] we're getting our hands all over that leather all day.

[27:00] So we had squeegees, we had spray bottles.

[27:04] I can tell you so much about the proper care

[27:07] and feeding of leather,

[27:09] because you really do need to feed it.

[27:10] It's a living thing.

[27:11] Oils and amulets and, you know.

[27:15] That's why we're actually listed twice in the credits.

[27:18] First as special stunt support,

[27:20] and then also later

[27:21] under a wardrobe consistency technician.

[27:24] Just keeping that wardrobe looking consistent.

[27:26] Leather is very fingerprintable.

[27:28] It's very easy to crease,

[27:29] very easy to just get grease on it.

[27:32] And they serve so much fried food.

[27:34] And those actors eat it.

[27:35] And they eat it.

[27:36] I've been on sets before.

[27:37] These actors, they eat greasy food all day long.

[27:41] Because if you're an actor,

[27:42] you don't know, you're like,

[27:43] great, I'm getting catered lunch right now,

[27:45] but I might not work for a while.

[27:46] I may not get food again for a while.

[27:48] It take me through a moment here

[27:49] where you're kind of, you know,

[27:51] doing both jobs in one day.

[27:53] Let's say one of you is holding up a body.

[27:54] The other one is sort of supporting that.

[27:57] And then they call cut.

[27:59] You put Keanu or whatever other performer down,

[28:03] and then you immediately grab some squeegees

[28:05] and you start kind of scrubbing them up.

[28:08] I mean, sometimes we have to work

[28:10] sort of in tandem, like a delicate ballet.

[28:13] You know, if there's movement required

[28:15] and Elliot's moving a body part,

[28:18] as soon as he moves his hand,

[28:20] I might swoop in, quick little squeegee,

[28:22] because the more work that can be done in camera,

[28:25] the less that stuff needs to be taken out in post.

[28:28] Yes.

[28:29] But what you're describing now

[28:30] makes me think there actually is a lot happening in post,

[28:32] because if you are in the shot

[28:34] and then you are squeegeeing,

[28:36] like they still have to remove you from the shot.

[28:38] So to me, like, and look, I am not a professional.

[28:41] So this is why it's so interesting

[28:42] to talk to you guys about this.

[28:43] Because to me, I feel like it'd be easier

[28:44] to edit out a smudge on a pair of pants

[28:48] than a whole human body

[28:49] actively scrubbing someone else's body in the shot.

[28:52] But I must be wrong.

[28:54] No, it's funny you think that, you'd state that.

[28:56] But the way that technology has developed,

[28:58] it's actually the opposite.

[28:59] Dan, I think I cut you off, but you were saying,

[29:01] I'm sure exactly what I was about to say.

[29:03] Well, yes.

[29:05] Look, in terms of pure man hours,

[29:09] is it simpler?

[29:11] Maybe.

[29:12] But in terms of what looks good on camera,

[29:15] like if you want to make it look good,

[29:17] it's way simpler to do it our way.

[29:19] It's similar to how when they were making Psycho,

[29:22] Alfred Hitchcock was like,

[29:23] oh, I need blood to pour down the shower.

[29:25] Get me some chocolate syrup.

[29:27] And they said, no, we have real human blood for you

[29:29] right here.

[29:30] And they tried it and it just didn't look like blood.

[29:32] It just didn't look like real blood on camera.

[29:34] They had to use chocolate syrup.

[29:35] And I don't know what they did with it.

[29:37] Or where they got it.

[29:38] Or where they got it, exactly.

[29:39] Back then they could do that.

[29:40] The studio system back then,

[29:42] ugh, the stories that I've heard.

[29:43] It was a real waste of blood.

[29:45] I just wanted to mention,

[29:46] it's funny that Dan referred to it as a delicate ballet,

[29:49] because that's really how I got into this.

[29:50] When I was young, I went to see the ballet,

[29:52] my family took me,

[29:53] and I saw the male dancers lifting up the female dancers.

[29:56] And it just, I was like, that's what I want to do.

[30:00] the thing that I want to do with my life and I'm so lucky that I got to live out

[30:03] that childhood dream. Because unfortunately you had no talent for

[30:07] dance per se. Yes, the little bit of time that I spent trying to learn the

[30:12] dance was a mistake. That was a waste of time and I apologize to everyone who was

[30:16] hurt during that period. But the lifting I found I had a talent for and I

[30:20] remember when my teacher said to me, you need to leave this studio right now but

[30:24] I want to see you lifting people or you've wasted your life. And I think

[30:29] about it all the time. Wow, that does feel like one of those

[30:32] comments that sticks with you. So am I right to assume that the two of you

[30:35] sort of invented this job and maybe this is the beginning of this being a

[30:40] role on a film set? Yes, that's true. We sort of hung out our shingle and I'll

[30:44] tell you something, for many, many years people were like, why? But it just

[30:49] takes getting one foot in the door, a foot that we are holding up and

[30:55] Hollywood opened up for us. And I have to say, I'm sure most if not all great

[30:59] artists in the history of time have had someone say, why? When they first

[31:05] started, you know, like I'm sure Picasso got that. So it really feels like you

[31:09] guys knew in that moment, like I'm going to keep with this because I know

[31:12] there's something special here. We've used that Picasso comparison a lot

[31:16] actually in conversation with each other. And yeah, you're right. When he

[31:20] was first started painting pictures of people that are all messed up and broken

[31:23] into pieces and kind of mushed around, I'm sure people were confused by it.

[31:28] Is this even really painting? And that's kind of the way they felt with us.

[31:31] Early on, a lot of the time we would get told, why can't we use wires for that?

[31:35] And luckily, choreography has gotten so intricate and so complicated.

[31:42] You got a tangling problem. Yes, exactly. And I remember there was one

[31:46] job, I won't say the name of it. There was one director who said, no, I'm

[31:49] going to use wires. And then the wires got tangled and they came to us kind of

[31:54] sheepishly. And we said, we'll do it, but we're going to charge you three

[31:58] times what we're going to charge you for just because of the insult.

[32:01] Shame on them. Anyway, that is James Cameron. I said I wasn't going to

[32:04] mention his name, but I did. I think it's fair.

[32:06] And the movie was Titanic? Yes. And the movie was Titanic. Exactly.

[32:09] Yeah. Oh, so you, so you may, I mean, because we also, he said, I don't want

[32:12] to credit you in this. I'm going to just say we did it with wires because he was

[32:15] mad at us. And we said, then you're going to have to pay us more. So they

[32:18] paid us a no credit fee, but all that stuff, if Kate wasn't, she could not,

[32:22] she could not stop slipping off that desk that was floating in the water.

[32:25] I was just going to ask you what scene was it? Because I didn't, I don't

[32:28] remember a scene where there was someone being held up. So were you under the

[32:31] water? Yes. So we were, we had scuba gear and we were actually balancing the

[32:35] desk and each with one hand and we each had another hand on her ankle to kind

[32:40] of hold her in place on that because she's a naturally slippery person. She's

[32:43] a very talented actress, but naturally slippery and it was hard work.

[32:47] It's sort of like the beginning of the Muppet movie, you know, where Kermit's

[32:50] playing in the middle of a swamp and you're like, where's, where's Jim

[32:52] Hansen? It's, you know, it's all done with scuba gear and such. And, and

[32:56] frankly, you know, I, I, I'm glad that Cameron came through with the money,

[33:00] but, uh, I'll let you in on a little secret. Uh, we kept doubling our salary

[33:04] so often. That's a lot of why Titanic cost as much as it did.

[33:07] Well, I, I always like to say in these interviews, you know, you have a

[33:10] platform right now. Is there a project you're working on where, you know, you,

[33:13] you'd love to see if you can get some traction here and just talk about it a

[33:16] bit. Dan, do you want to talk about Island of the Floaters or should I talk

[33:19] about Island of the Floaters? Uh, why don't you talk about it? So Island of

[33:23] the Floaters is an idea we've talked about where it's a world where everyone

[33:27] is hovering about three and a half, four feet off the ground at all times. And

[33:31] it's a romantic comedy, you know, it's really fun. It's silly. There's a lot

[33:35] of heart to it, but everyone's always floating. And so this is our chance. We

[33:39] feel like to employ all the people that we want to employ working as stunt

[33:43] supporters. And we'll be, and there'll be times in the movie where you'll see

[33:48] a happening where you will finally see the people holding them up. Not the

[33:52] whole time, but we'll ease you into it. It starts out there just floating and

[33:56] you're like, how is this happening? And then over time you start to see the

[33:59] support people. And then eventually you just see just the support people and the

[34:03] people, the actors that were holding up aren't even on screen anymore. They're

[34:06] still there. They're the ones that get painted out. Exactly. Exactly. How

[34:11] fascinating that is. So what a cool idea. I mean, look, it feels pretty unique as

[34:17] far as I'm concerned and, and, and quite a project, uh, quite an undertaking. But

[34:21] I think if there's anyone who could do it, it seems like you guys are, you're

[34:24] the pair, you know? I mean, Hollywood's been afraid of it. Well, they keep

[34:27] telling us, you know, like there's no screenplay or story reason why these

[34:31] people need to be floating. And we're like, well, we're the reason, you know,

[34:35] Hollywood. And the reason is the title. Exactly. You get it. Island of the

[34:38] floaters. Like that's the reason. So that's almost confusing. They don't get

[34:42] that. You know, it's like if you make star Wars, it's gotta be among the stars.

[34:46] If you just call it Wars, it doesn't have to be. The title is the foundation

[34:50] that you build all that on. And that tells people what to expect. So you got

[34:53] to do it for the title. Sometimes people in, in, in Hollywood just don't get it.

[34:57] You know, amen gatekeepers. Well, I have to say, this has been such a wonderful

[35:02] interview, getting to know the two of you, learning about this role on a set

[35:05] that I never even knew existed. And I just thank you so much for your, for your

[35:09] time today. Oh, thank you. Yeah. Thank you very much. We really appreciate your

[35:12] help with us getting the word out about this work. It's just so important to us.

[35:16] I think it will continue. It sounds like you have a really cool thing on your

[35:18] hands here. Oh, pun. And that's our show for today. Thank you to the Flophouse

[35:24] podcast, Elliot and Dan, plus John Hopps. Join us next week for a chapter

[35:29] novelized by new girl, Steve Agee, and narrated by David Dalsmashian, who you've

[35:34] seen in Dune, Oppenheimer, Suicide Squad, and Late Night with the Devil.

[35:39] Till then, Stephen, unplug us from this matrix. You got it. The Novelizers is

[35:43] produced by me, Stephen Levinson, with Graham Douglas, Kevin Carter, Christine

[35:47] Bowen, Dennis DiClaudio, Rob Kudner, and Suchetas Bokele. Music by Cole Amoff.

[35:53] Graphic design by Crystal Dennis. Theme song by Andrew Lin. Performed by Knots.

[35:58] Special thanks to Chris Karwalski and WYSO Radio in Yellow Springs, Ohio.

[36:02] The Novelizers is a work of parody, unauthorized by Warner Brothers. Follow

[36:06] The Novelizers on Instagram, Threads, Facebook, and TikTok, and please donate

[36:19] There was a matrix made of computers. There was a guy who could dodge all of

[36:27] the bullets. He lived in fluid, just like a fetus. But he was born again like baby Jesus.

[36:39] Novelize that movie. Write a book and also read it to me.

The Flop House on The Novelizers

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