The Flop House on The Novelizers

Dan McCoy

[0:00] Hey, it's Dan here, just with a brief message about what you're about to hear.

[0:04] This is a feed drop of another podcast, but never fear, it is filled with Flophouse content.

[0:10] It's got a thing that I wrote for John Hodgman to read, the first written comedy I've done

[0:17] for John Hodgman since our old days working together on The Daily Show with Jon Stewart.

[0:22] It also has me and Elliot doing some improv in character at length, a thing that we do

[0:29] not do on our own show, so I hope you enjoy it here.

[0:32] You know what?

[0:33] The show itself explains its premise right up at the top way better than I will ever be

[0:39] able to, but I just wanted to sort of explain why it was here.

[0:42] We did a little crossover.

[0:44] It's about The Matrix.

[0:45] We did an episode about The Matrix, and we thought you guys would enjoy hearing the stuff

[0:50] that Elliot and I did for this other show.

S2

[0:54] Today on the show, a very special crossover episode with the Flophouse podcast, plus John

[1:00] Hodgman.

[1:00] It's the Novelizers.

[1:02] Don't wash your popcorn.

S1

[1:04] Don't wash your milk darts.

[1:06] Don't wash my shoes stuck in pools of sticky cola.

[1:10] Don't show me grown lips.

[1:12] Don't show me fistfights.

[1:14] Just show me words spread out under the booklight.

[1:17] Yeah, baby, Novelize.

[1:20] Don't wash my shoes.

[1:21] You need sentences, paragraphs, and nothing to see.

[1:25] Yeah, novelize the movie.

[1:28] Write a book.

[1:30] Turn it into a podcast.

S2

[1:33] Hi, I'm your host, Christine Bolin, here with Steven Levinson and Kevin Carter, welcoming

[1:37] you to The Novelizers, a podcast where we take classic films, get TV comedy writers from

[1:42] shows like SNL, The IT Crowd, The Daily Show, Colbert, and more to turn them into full-length

[1:48] audiobooks.

[1:50] Then we get a different actor or comedian like J.K.

[1:51] Simmons, Wayne Brady, Will Forte, Rachel Dratch, Ira Glass, Jake Johnson, Matt Mercer,

[1:57] and more to narrate each chapter.

S3

[1:59] This season, we're novelizing The Matrix, and this episode, we're doing something special.

[2:04] See, it turns out we're not the only movie podcast on the internet.

[2:08] That's right.

[2:08] There's also another one.

[2:09] It's called The Flophouse Podcast, and it's hilarious.

[2:13] The hosts, Elliot Kalin, Dan McCoy, and Stuart Wellington get together and talk about movies

[2:17] that maybe didn't do as well as the creators had hoped, or as we call those in the business,

[2:22] flops.

John Hodgman

[2:22] Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

[2:24] Slow down.

[2:25] Slow down.

[2:26] So, like, they don't novelize movies?

S3

[2:28] I don't get it.

[2:29] Yeah, it's crazy, but somehow it works.

[2:32] Anyway, we invited Dan and Elliot to come on our show and help us novelize The Matrix.

[2:37] But before we hear that, Kevin, catch us up on where we are in the film.

John Hodgman

[2:40] Morpheus tells Neo that it's not 1999, but it's more closer to 2199.

[2:47] He shows Neo around the Nebuchadnezzar ship, introducing the crew, and before he shows Neo

[2:52] what The Matrix is, he gets stuck in the back of his head and is put into the construct,

[2:56] which is actually a computer program.

[2:58] He then shows Neo what he thinks the world is and what the world actually looks like.

[3:02] Neo sees the truth and immediately wants out.

S2

[3:05] Thanks, Kevin.

[3:06] Now, here's the Flophouse podcast Dan McCoy, who also wrote for The Daily Show for over a decade.

[3:11] He's novelizing a chapter narrated by John Hodgman, star of the Judge John Hodgman podcast,

[3:17] Dicktown on FX Hulu, and books like Vacationland and Medallion Status.

[3:21] John Hodgman, novelize us!

John Hodgman

[3:25] The Matrix, Chapter 9, Kung Fu Tussle.

[3:30] Novelized by Dan McCoy.

[3:31] Narrated by John Hodgman.

[3:34] Neo woke up from the computer simulation in a cold sweat, like a formerly successful writer

[3:39] whose career had been reduced to novelizing hit movies of the past.

[3:44] Who are all you people?

[3:46] He yelled at the crew of the Nebuchadnezzar.

[3:49] And why are you all dressed in artfully torn oversized sweaters, like a bunch of Chris Evanses

[3:54] from Knives Out?

[3:55] Neo laughed hysterically at his own anachronistic joke, which proved to be a mistake, as his meatspace

[4:01] body soon gasped for air.

[4:04] Breathe, Morpheus suggested, helpfully, as if that wasn't currently number one on his

[4:09] priority list.

[4:11] Neo collapsed to the ground, expelling the curdled milk from his mouth that he'd been

[4:14] saving in his cheek to enjoy later, I guess.

[4:17] Suddenly, the camera focus went all blurry, which Neo took as his cue to pass out.

[4:22] He awoke sometime later.

[4:25] Like a detective in an old pulp novel who was always, quote, awaking sometime later, as if

[4:29] there's no way to check a goddamn clock.

[4:31] He lay on a bed that definitely, 100%, was full of bedbugs.

[4:36] Ew.

[4:37] Everything's so grimy in the real world, he thought.

[4:39] Where do real world people buy these linens and itchy sweaters?

[4:43] Bed burlap and beyond?

[4:46] Morpheus sat in the shadows next to him.

[4:48] Apparently one of those creeps who likes to watch people while they're sleeping.

[4:52] I better let him know I'm awake, Neo thought, before he starts taking pictures.

[4:57] He ventured a question.

[4:59] I can't go back, can I?

[5:01] You can't go home again, said Morpheus, quoting the author Thomas Wolfe, who, I bet never had

[5:07] to novelize any goddamn movies just to earn enough to buy his family frozen peas.

[5:12] I'm thinking.

[5:14] Neo lay on his side, staring away from Morpheus in the traditional position for all young people

[5:19] getting lectured by dad.

[5:21] Neo, I'm sorry.

[5:23] I made an oopsie.

[5:25] Normally we don't wake someone's mind up once they're past a certain age.

[5:29] It's hard on them.

[5:31] It can cause a condition we call mindus explotus.

[5:36] You know when that would have been useful information, Neo thought?

[5:39] When you were handing out the magic pills?

[5:42] Anyway, let's chalk that one up in the my bad column.

[5:47] Morpheus paused.

[5:48] In a way a person does who's about to justify their actions.

[5:52] Since you're in bed already, let me tell you a story.

[5:56] He handed Neo a glass of warm milk that he had scraped up from the floor where Neo had

[6:01] left it.

[6:02] Once upon a time, there was this guy who could see that he was in the Matrix.

[6:07] He was the first to wake people up.

[6:11] Neo started to zone out the way he always did whenever someone started explaining their

[6:15] religious beliefs.

[6:17] He started to count little bits of bed bug poop he saw on the sheets.

[6:21] I'll spare you the irrelevant details of how one nude guy in a pot of gloop could possibly

[6:28] manage to wake other people up, or how they could then build complex airships that have

[6:33] the ability to jack into the Matrix.

[6:36] Morpheus troned on.

[6:38] Neo wondered when the chemtrails and fluoride would come in.

[6:41] His name was Quetzalcoatl, or Q for short.

[6:47] A great man.

[6:48] He saved us all from the mind virus and taught us that people we thought were fellow humans

[6:53] were just NPCs.

[6:56] We believed we were woke, but only he could wake.

[7:01] Buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh, Morpheus's voice faded out as Neo drifted off to sleep.

[7:07] An hour later, Neo woke up just in time to hear Morpheus say,

[7:11] And that's why it's okay to shoot other people, because they don't have souls the end.

[7:17] Normally, Neo would panic that he'd miss something important while dozing, but to be honest,

[7:22] it was a pretty standard chosen one narrative, so he had gotten the gist.

[7:27] Basically, the deal was there was a magic dude long ago who had borrowed a page from Jesus'

[7:32] playbook and died.

[7:34] And now, because of some prophecy by an oracle, named in a kind of first thought kind of way,

[7:40] let's be honest, the oracle, Morpheus was convinced that the one was gonna be resurrected any day now.

[7:47] Oh shit, Neo thought.

[7:50] Does this guy think I'm his messiah now?

[7:52] Just because Neo is an anagram for one?

[7:55] That would be dumb.

[7:57] But he kept his doubts with him.

[7:59] On the surface, he just smiled at Morpheus and said,

[8:02] Cool story, bro.

[8:03] Morpheus smiled back.

[8:05] It is cool, broseph, he said.

[8:07] Tis the coolest story ever told.

[8:10] He arose and looked at Neo with an expression straight from the dictionary definition of

[8:15] portentous.

[8:16] He asked,

[8:17] Are you ready?

[8:20] For what?

[8:22] Neo responded with barely controlled panic.

[8:24] He looked around the room for pictures of Kool-Aid or a pile of Xerox pamphlets,

[8:29] or worst of all, a baptismal.

[8:32] Your training, Morpheus said.

[8:35] And then left the room?

[8:36] Leaving Neo to wonder,

[8:38] Am I supposed to, like, follow you or what?

[8:41] Like, I've been through a lot today.

[8:43] And then he drifted back to sleep.

[8:45] That evening, Neo sat on the floor enjoying a petty mall seizure

[8:49] from the Nebuchadnezzar's constantly flickering lights.

[8:53] A muscular man, who was certainly large enough to be imposing,

[8:56] but nowhere near as large as a tank,

[8:59] walked in with the cockiness of the sort of movie actor who would demand a pay raise

[9:02] so large that his role would be recast if, for instance, that movie had two sequels.

[9:07] Hey, I'm Tank, he said,

[9:09] extending his acceptably muscular arm to shake hands with Neo.

[9:13] You don't have one of those...

[9:15] Neo gestured to the back of his head where his metal matrix port was.

[9:19] Brain anuses?

[9:21] Or brainuses, as we call them?

[9:23] Nope.

[9:24] Me and my brother were 100% born in the real world.

[9:28] Neo wasn't really digging the star-belly sneetches

[9:30] are the best sneetches on the beaches energy this dude was bringing,

[9:33] but he ignored it,

[9:35] as the decidedly non-tank-sized man continued.

[9:38] I'm a genuine child of Zion.

[9:41] Zion?

[9:43] Neo asked politely.

[9:45] Oh man, it's rad.

[9:47] It's the last human city, and it's like...

[9:49] You ever go to a rave under a bunch of stalactites?

[9:52] It's so bitchin'.

[9:54] Don't worry, you'll see it for yourself in like half a movie.

[9:58] My band's playing this weekend.

[9:59] He handed Neo a flyer for his band, Tank Skankers.

[10:03] It's kinda like ska electric lash.

[10:06] But we also hit big gongs.

[10:09] Thanks, Neo said,

[10:11] mentally throwing the flyer in the trash.

[10:14] And why are you here?

[10:16] I'm here to stick my thing in your brain-ness

[10:19] and upgrade your software.

[10:21] Moments later,

[10:22] Neo found himself in a sort of steampunk dentist chair,

[10:25] as Tank shuffled through some computer disks.

[10:28] Let's see.

[10:29] Encarta 97,

[10:31] Leisure Suit Larry in the Land of the Lounge Lizards.

[10:33] Ah, here we go.

[10:35] Fighting for dummies.

[10:37] He jacked Neo in.

[10:39] And the Chosen One shook as he had his first brain-gasm.

[10:42] Countless fighting styles flooded his neurons.

[10:45] Jiu-Jitsu,

[10:46] Jeet Kune Do,

[10:48] Wing Chun,

[10:49] Yang Chun,

[10:50] Brazilian dance fighting,

[10:52] Brazilian wax fighting,

[10:53] foxy boxing.

[10:55] That thing where you have a friend get on their hands and knees behind someone,

[10:58] and then you push them over.

[11:00] The information coursed through Neo's brain.

[11:03] The ultimate power fantasy

[11:04] of getting to be really cool and good at something

[11:07] without ever having to actually practice.

[11:10] His eyes sprang open to meet the gaze of Morpheus,

[11:13] who had yet again wandered in to stare creepily at Neo while he was unconscious.

[11:18] I know Kung Fu,

[11:19] Neo said.

[11:21] And also,

[11:22] Kung Fu.

[11:23] The legend continues.

[11:24] Whoa.

[11:25] Morpheus smiled,

[11:27] happy to see that he'd indoctrinated Neo into his little violence club.

[11:31] Well, let's see it.

[11:33] Grasshopper,

[11:34] he said.

[11:35] Suddenly,

[11:36] the two of them found themselves in a spacious,

[11:38] airy dojo.

[11:39] This is a sparring program,

[11:41] Morpheus said.

[11:42] It has rules similar to reality,

[11:44] but you can bend the rules a bit.

[11:46] Sort of like corrupt Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas.

[11:50] Neo nodded,

[11:51] understanding.

[11:52] Okay then, Neo.

[11:53] Hit me with your best shot.

[11:56] Fire away.

[11:57] Thwa, thwa, thwa, thwa, thwa, thwa, thwa.

[11:59] Neo yelled and waved his arms around in a way that anyone writing a novelization of a movie would definitely not be getting paid enough to adequately describe.

[12:07] Seriously.

[12:08] Like, what are you supposed to do with an action scene here?

[12:10] Describe every punch?

[12:11] You've seen kung fu movies before.

[12:13] You figure it out.

[12:14] All right,

[12:15] anyway,

[12:15] even though he was doing a really good job at punching,

[12:18] it was no match at how good Morpheus was at punching.

[12:21] And then once Neo saw how good his mentor could punch,

[12:23] he backed off and he gave a little smile,

[12:25] as if to say,

[12:26] oh, I see.

[12:27] And then he ran up Morpheus's chest,

[12:30] kicking him and defying gravity like some kind of wire-foo Looney Tunes character.

[12:35] But it turned out that Morpheus was good at kicking too.

[12:38] So, kicking-wise,

[12:40] it was also kind of a draw.

[12:41] But if you were seeing this rather than having it described to you,

[12:44] it would look totally cool.

[12:46] Back on the ship,

[12:47] a character whose name I would have learned if the publishers had met my quote,

[12:50] ran into the mess hall yelling,

[12:52] fight, fight!

[12:52] And everyone ran to watch like,

[12:54] uh, a fight?

[12:54] I gotta see this!

[12:56] Even though, presumably, training happened all the time?

[12:58] But, whatever, I get it.

[13:00] The only entertainment on the Nebuchadnezzar was like one copy of Parcheesi that survived the apocalypse.

[13:05] And if they wanted to watch TV,

[13:06] the only streaming service they got was Crackle.

[13:09] Can you imagine?

[13:10] Crackle.

[13:10] Gross.

[13:11] Meanwhile, back in the danger room,

[13:14] Neo and Morpheus were doing a bunch of cool-looking stuff.

[13:16] Like, at one point, Neo ran up a wooden beam

[13:19] and flipped over as if to say,

[13:20] Eat my ass, Donald O'Connor, and sing it in the rain.

[13:23] And then Morpheus gave a look and said,

[13:25] That don't depressa me much.

[13:27] And he kicked Neo into another wooden beam,

[13:29] breaking it, as if to say,

[13:30] Cool it with the wooden beams, dude.

[13:32] The older man walked calmly toward the battered Neo,

[13:35] to Morpheus-splain Neo's failure.

[13:38] You think I'm winning cause I'm stronger than you?

[13:40] There are no muscles in the Matrix.

[13:42] There's no air that you're breathing.

[13:44] There's no spoon.

[13:46] Oh, sorry, that line comes later.

[13:48] And then he casually kicked Neo in the face.

[13:50] It's all in your head, man.

[13:52] His words had the intended effect on Neo,

[13:55] who cranked his inner remote control to double time.

[13:58] Like the way you're probably listening to this podcast,

[14:00] so you can finish it in the bathroom before your supervisor notices you're not at your desk.

[14:04] And Neo did basically the same punching he was doing before,

[14:07] but this time really fast.

[14:09] And turns out, fast punching was a winning strategy.

[14:13] And Neo soon had Morpheus cornered up against his old nemesis,

[14:16] a wooden beam.

[14:17] Neo growled.

[14:18] I know what you're trying to do.

[14:21] Morpheus shot back.

[14:23] I'm trying to free your mind.

[14:25] Free your mind?

[14:26] And the rest will follow.

[14:27] Before you can read me,

[14:29] you've got to learn how to see me.

[14:31] And then he turned his eyes skyward to address the ship.

[14:34] Tank,

[14:35] load the jumpy thingy.

[14:37] Suddenly, the two men were atop a skyscraper,

[14:39] and Morpheus was wearing a leather duster and strapless goggles,

[14:43] which, unlike when you wear that stuff,

[14:45] looked really cool.

[14:46] You gotta let it all go, Neo.

[14:48] Doubt.

[14:49] Fear.

[14:50] YOLO.

[14:51] You know?

[14:52] Then Morpheus ran toward the side of the roof

[14:54] and jumped high in the air

[14:55] all the way to the next building

[14:57] with a girlish

[14:58] Wheeeee!

[15:01] Whoa,

[15:02] Neo said in a manner that could only be described as

[15:05] Keanu-esque.

[15:06] His duster looks awesome when he does that.

[15:09] Neo backed up to get a running start.

[15:11] Okay, Mr. Anderson,

[15:13] he muttered to himself,

[15:14] it's time to make the donuts.

[15:17] Back on the ship,

[15:18] watching the action,

[15:19] Trinity bit her lip,

[15:21] hornily.

[15:22] This was her favorite part,

[15:23] the jumping.

[15:25] Neo sped toward the edge.

[15:27] Whee!

[15:28] Whoa!

[15:31] He yelled as he absolutely biffed it hard.

[15:34] It was embarrassing.

[15:35] Neo plunged toward the hard concrete below,

[15:38] while Trinity gave a look that indicated

[15:40] that her horniness levels had plunged,

[15:42] in a manner not unlike Neo,

[15:44] off a building.

[15:46] Fortunately,

[15:46] the concrete had been animated by Chuck Jones,

[15:49] so Neo bounced off it.

[15:51] Whee!

[15:52] He said despondently.

[15:53] Everyone fails the first time,

[15:55] Cypher said,

[15:56] showing a lot of empathy for a guy who's probably about to be revealed as a villain pretty soon.

[16:01] Right, Trin?

[16:01] Trin?

[16:02] But Trinity had already left to go to the next scene.

S3

[16:06] Thank you,

[16:07] John Hodgman.

[16:08] Each week,

[16:09] we talk to someone who actually worked behind the scenes on the actual film,

[16:13] The Matrix,

[16:13] and this week is no exception.

[16:15] Let's roll that interview.

S2

[16:18] All right.

[16:19] I am here with the special stunt support team for the film,

[16:23] The Matrix.

[16:24] I have Elliot Kalin and Dan McCoy here.

[16:26] Hi, Elliot and Dan.

[16:27] How are you guys today?

Elliott Kalan

[16:28] Oh, very well.

[16:29] Thank you.

[16:29] Yeah, great.

[16:30] Thank you so much for having us.

S2

[16:31] Yeah.

[16:32] So, special stunt support team.

[16:35] Tell me a little bit about what you did for the film.

[16:37] I'm not even sure what that means.

Elliott Kalan

[16:38] This is a role that is in,

[16:41] it's used more and more in movies now,

[16:43] but it was pretty new around the time that The Matrix was produced,

[16:46] when we were brought on board for it.

[16:48] And that is,

[16:48] you notice that in The Matrix,

[16:49] there's a lot of,

[16:50] what you'd call, I guess,

[16:51] special stunt choreography.

[16:52] A lot of jumps where someone has to hang in the air for quite a while,

[16:56] or the scene where Count Reeves bends over backwards very far.

[17:01] And those scenes take an incredible toll on the muscles of a performer's body.

[17:06] In some cases,

[17:06] they are impossible to actually hold your body in that position for that amount of time on your own.

[17:12] And so, Dan and I,

[17:14] our job was to literally be kind of like the organic pedestals,

[17:19] I guess you could say,

[17:21] to hold them up,

[17:22] to keep them in that position for the extent of the shot.

[17:25] For instance, early in the movie,

[17:26] Carrie Ann Moss,

[17:27] she jumps in the air,

[17:28] the camera spins around her,

[17:29] she's in the air the entire time,

[17:31] nobody can do that.

[17:32] Yeah, that's impossible.

[17:33] Come on.

[17:34] It's impossible.

[17:35] It's science fictional,

[17:36] that someone would be able to do something like that.

[17:37] So, I was literally the one who kind of like held her up during that time.

[17:42] That's not an actual jump.

[17:43] That's me lifting her up above my head,

[17:45] and then holding her in that position while the camera spins.

[17:48] And then,

[17:49] using technology that was very new at the time,

[17:51] they just paintbrushed me out.

[17:53] And it's seamless.

[17:53] You can't,

[17:54] you don't even know I was there,

[17:55] but I'm there holding her up.

[17:56] And similarly,

[17:57] Dan,

[17:57] do you want to talk about the Keanu Reeves bending over backwards?

[18:01] Yeah.

[18:01] That was your specialty.

Dan McCoy

[18:03] When Keanu would bend backwards to escape those bullets,

[18:06] I would be,

[18:06] you know,

[18:07] sort of down below him,

[18:08] you know,

[18:09] as one would,

[18:10] if,

[18:10] you know,

[18:11] you were going to trip a person,

[18:12] but I'm not there to trip him.

[18:13] I'm there to provide.

[18:14] Quite the opposite.

[18:15] The support is the important thing in the special set support team.

[18:19] We are like human exoskeletons,

[18:22] sort of,

[18:23] you know,

[18:24] muscles on the outside.

[18:25] I like to think of myself as a human puppeteer,

[18:27] almost,

[18:28] you know,

[18:28] helping to manipulate the body so we can capture these amazing stunts.

Elliott Kalan

[18:33] When it's working best,

[18:34] you're working as an extension of the actor's physical body.

[18:37] And it takes a lot of getting to know them,

[18:40] spending time with them,

[18:41] rehearsing with them,

[18:42] to get to the point where it is just seamless,

[18:43] where you're working as one.

[18:45] And sometimes it's kind of hard to know when your body stops and their body starts.

[18:48] We get that close to it.

S2

[18:50] Wow.

[18:50] This is,

[18:51] I mean,

[18:51] I have so many questions.

[18:53] This is fascinating.

[18:54] I mean,

[18:54] first off,

[18:55] I,

[18:56] I'm silly to have assumed this,

[18:57] but I really thought that all of that was like in post that,

[19:01] you know,

[19:01] they would be,

[19:02] it looks like they're levitating.

[19:04] It looks like they're held in midair,

[19:06] but that that's,

[19:07] you know,

[19:07] actually something that they're creating.

[19:09] It's a visual effect.

[19:10] They're creating a post,

[19:10] but what you're telling me is,

[19:12] you were physically there holding up these bodies for that duration of time.

[19:19] Is that correct?

Dan McCoy

[19:20] Yes,

[19:20] exactly.

[19:21] Wow.

[19:22] I mean,

[19:22] you know what?

[19:23] If we wanted to do it for the glory,

[19:24] we would be in front of the camera.

[19:26] It's fine that you don't know that we exist.

[19:28] We are in front of the camera,

[19:29] but then we're removed afterwards.

[19:30] True,

[19:30] true,

[19:31] true.

S2

[19:31] Well,

[19:31] and to be honest,

[19:32] I feel like that would sort of take away from the film.

[19:35] If we actually do see you holding him up or her.

[19:38] Well,

Dan McCoy

[19:38] that's an argument I had with the directors.

[19:41] I thought it would be kind of interesting,

[19:43] you know,

[19:43] like sort of a Michel Gondry,

[19:45] you see the wires kind of thing,

[19:48] but ultimately they wanted to go in a different direction.

S2

[19:51] Wow.

[19:51] But that's interesting.

[19:52] You actually pitched that on set to just stay in the film.

[19:54] They wouldn't,

[19:55] they wouldn't brush you out.

Dan McCoy

[19:56] I mean,

[19:57] sometimes it's the art that you see that you appreciate all the more.

[20:01] It's the craft.

Elliott Kalan

[20:02] Yeah.

[20:02] Both of us studied a moon roku puppetry in which the puppeteers are visible at all times.

[20:07] They're dressed in black,

[20:08] they're masked,

[20:09] but they're visible on stage.

[20:10] And you kind of forget that they're there after a certain amount of time.

[20:13] So that was Dan's big pitch to the Wachowskis was that eventually the audience would forget he was there.

[20:18] They just get so used to seeing him that they wouldn't even know he was there anymore.

[20:22] And that being its way,

[20:23] a more impressive illusion than if he wasn't there.

[20:26] And so they didn't know what they weren't seeing.

[20:28] An audience can't,

[20:29] they can't be impressed by what they don't know they're not seeing,

[20:33] but they can be easily impressed by what they are seeing and forget that they're seeing.

S2

[20:37] An audience cannot be impressed by something they don't know they're not seeing.

[20:40] Wow.

[20:41] That is,

[20:41] that is so true.

[20:42] If I don't know that there's that work going in,

[20:45] then I can't be impressed by that work.

[20:47] So what you're saying is it's,

[20:48] it's almost nice to kind of know how much went into this.

[20:51] And then you get to reveal that now that you were integral.

[20:54] I mean,

[20:54] so you were physically holding a body up for a very long time.

[20:58] And what's amazing about the work that you did,

[21:01] which is,

[21:01] which is so impressive is that they seem so still,

[21:05] they seem so still in midair.

[21:07] Or like when he's leaning back,

[21:08] you know,

[21:08] his movement is so seamless.

[21:11] I can't believe that you're actually underneath him,

[21:14] holding him up because you're doing such a good job of making it seem like,

[21:18] you know,

[21:19] that's,

[21:20] that's a skill that he has within this character.

[21:22] You know,

[21:23] it's really impressive.

Dan McCoy

[21:25] Well,

[21:25] thank you.

[21:26] It's very important to me that you say that,

[21:28] but it's also,

[21:29] it's a hard thing to do.

[21:30] I had to tell Keanu,

[21:32] I'm like,

[21:32] look,

[21:33] I don't,

[21:34] there's all of the weight that you can get off of your body right now would help me.

[21:38] You can't have your keys on set.

[21:39] You can't have your phone on set.

[21:42] After several hours,

[21:43] that is going to add so much strain to me.

[21:45] He could not get home one day because he couldn't find his car keys,

[21:48] but I,

[21:48] I maintain that's his problem.

Elliott Kalan

[21:51] He was so willing to work with you though.

[21:52] He didn't wear socks.

[21:53] He didn't wear underpants,

[21:54] anything that he could do to remove just a milligram of weight to make the job that much easier for you.

[21:58] I really,

[21:59] I give him credit for that.

S2

[22:00] That's interesting that you would have to say that to him about his keys.

[22:02] And,

[22:03] and,

[22:03] and his phone,

[22:04] I didn't even know,

[22:05] you know,

[22:05] he would have had a phone or keys in his pocket on set.

[22:08] It's interesting you to say that,

[22:09] but I'm so glad you did.

[22:09] Cause it probably made your job in that moment much easier.

Elliott Kalan

[22:12] Oh,

[22:12] so much easier.

[22:13] He's very forgetful.

[22:14] He's a very forgetful act.

[22:15] I mean,

[22:15] the thing is when he's in character,

[22:16] he doesn't forget,

[22:17] but when the minute he's out of character,

[22:19] he forgets.

[22:20] So it's like,

[22:20] well,

[22:20] where's my keys?

[22:21] You know,

[22:21] where's my phone?

[22:22] I mean,

[22:22] he's a very sweet guy,

[22:23] but he freaking loses them a lot.

[22:24] So he always wants to have them on him.

[22:26] So he's a special case.

[22:27] He's a special case.

[22:28] Carrie Ann,

[22:28] she,

[22:29] she didn't have her keys or a phone on her when I was picking her up for that big job.

S2

[22:33] That feels very professional that she didn't have things in her pockets when she was filming.

Elliott Kalan

[22:36] Also with the,

[22:37] the pants they were wearing often were too tight to really have too much in their pockets because.

[22:41] Especially hers.

[22:43] Yeah.

[22:43] Yes.

[22:43] Yes,

[22:43] exactly.

[22:44] And you'd see it on camera.

[22:45] And sometimes they'd have to paint that out if she forgot that she had like,

[22:49] she went to lunch,

[22:50] she put the receipt in her pocket.

[22:51] She just,

[22:52] you know what you do.

[22:52] You just kind of stuck in your pocket.

[22:53] You're not thinking about it.

[22:54] And then you can see this kind of like bulge where crumpled up receipt is.

[22:57] They'd have to remove that.

[22:58] They're already removing me from so many of these scenes.

[23:00] She goes to the bank.

Dan McCoy

[23:02] She picks up a dum-dum,

[23:04] you know,

[23:04] at the teller.

[23:05] Right.

[23:05] To have sucker to have later.

[23:07] You can't,

[23:07] you can't have that in there.

S2

[23:08] And it's so obvious if you have a sucker in your pocket and you're wearing super tight leather pants.

[23:12] Like,

[23:12] I mean,

[23:12] no,

[23:12] you're not even gonna mistake that for something else.

[23:14] Everyone knows that you went to the bank and you got a sucker,

[23:16] you know,

[23:16] and it's not professional.

Elliott Kalan

[23:18] Only explanation.

[23:18] And now they're wondering,

[23:20] did Trinity go to the bank?

[23:21] I didn't see that scene.

[23:23] Is the bank in the matrix world?

[23:25] Or is it in our world,

[23:26] which is also kind of the matrix world?

[23:28] It raises a lot of questions.

[23:30] And so then it's got to be painted out.

[23:32] And that's more money that gets spent in the budget.

[23:34] That's more money that could go to painting out people rather than painting out things.

S2

[23:38] This is such an interesting role.

[23:39] And this is the first I've ever heard of this role existing on a set.

[23:42] Are there other films that you two have worked on where you've provided this kind of assistance to the film?

Elliott Kalan

[23:48] We actually work a lot.

[23:50] There's so many,

[23:50] especially the introduction of the Marvel superhero movies has been fantastic.

[23:54] So those characters are always jumping and flying and doing stuff like that.

[23:57] And so we do a lot of that.

[23:59] We do a lot of those newest Star Wars movies.

[24:03] When Yoda was jumping around in the,

[24:05] I forget which people it was.

[24:07] I think the third one,

[24:09] that was a lot of me having to like pick him up and twist him around on set.

[24:15] And we did a lot of work in the Country Bears movie that came out a while back,

[24:20] not too long after the Matrix,

[24:22] because just because the costumes were very heavy.

[24:24] And so the actors were just having trouble standing up in them.

[24:28] So Dan and I would be kind of leaning on them,

[24:31] just keep them standing up straight.

[24:33] You know,

[24:33] not big stunts,

[24:35] just helping them out with the costumes.

Dan McCoy

[24:37] Human buttresses is kind of the way I viewed our work on that one.

Elliott Kalan

[24:41] I remember on the set,

[24:42] on the set we called ourselves the bear trusses,

[24:44] which was very funny.

Dan McCoy

[24:45] We were the bear trusses.

[24:45] That's pretty cute.

[24:46] We got some jackets that said that.

[24:47] Yeah.

S2

[24:48] I love that.

[24:49] You know,

[24:50] I have to say,

[24:51] you must both be very,

[24:53] very strong.

Dan McCoy

[24:54] You would think,

[24:55] but I'm quite a weak man.

[24:57] And honestly,

[24:59] I'm not sure how much longer I can stay in this business.

[25:03] Or frankly,

[25:04] why I still get hired.

[25:06] Cause I have to take a lot of breaks.

S2

[25:09] I would imagine.

[25:10] I mean,

[25:10] but that's not even like,

[25:12] look,

[25:12] I have a three year old daughter and I have a hard time holding her up.

[25:16] I can't even imagine holding a grown human person above my head in a very still position for an extended amount of time and not feeling quite overwhelmed.

[25:27] Yes.

[25:27] Well,

[25:27] that's when the training kicks in.

[25:29] That's when the breathing.

[25:29] Yeah.

Elliott Kalan

[25:30] It's important to look at your breathing and to control that way,

[25:33] but it does take enormous wear and tear on your body.

[25:35] You know,

[25:36] there are times when I'll be at home and I have to carry groceries and I just feel the pain all up and down the right side of my body,

[25:42] especially.

[25:43] And my wife was like,

[25:44] oh,

[25:44] you can pick up Chris Evans,

[25:45] but you can't pick up these groceries.

[25:47] And I'm like,

[25:47] you don't understand when I'm on set.

[25:49] It's like another person is helping.

[25:50] It's like the spirit of everyone who's ever worked on a film is kind of in inhabiting me and helping me that strength.

[25:57] I kind of don't realize it because I'm performing,

[25:59] you know,

[25:59] in that moment.

[26:00] Wow.

[26:00] But when in regular life,

[26:01] it's very hard.

[26:02] It really does take a toll.

[26:04] And, you know,

[26:04] arthritis is a major problem for people in our line of work,

[26:07] as is,

[26:08] you know,

[26:08] muscle boredom.

[26:09] It's called when your muscles get,

[26:11] get,

[26:12] they get tired of being in one position,

[26:13] not just physically,

[26:14] but also kind of emotionally.

[26:16] It's very difficult.

[26:17] Oh,

S2

[26:17] that's so interesting.

[26:18] That's so funny.

[26:18] I've heard of the term muscle memory,

[26:20] but I've never heard of muscle boredom.

Elliott Kalan

[26:22] Oh yeah.

[26:22] The muscle has an enormous amount of cognitive function that you don't often hear about.

[26:27] And the flip side of that muscle memory is of course,

[26:29] muscle boredom.

S2

[26:29] Yeah.

[26:30] Wow.

[26:30] That's so interesting.

[26:31] So were there days where you didn't have a lot to do on set?

[26:34] Maybe days where you were there,

[26:36] but they weren't shooting things where they needed a human body holding another human body?

Dan McCoy

[26:40] Well,

[26:40] we did some other work on set and honestly,

[26:42] it was kind of an offshoot of our primary work.

[26:45] We were also responsible for polishing all of the black leather.

[26:50] That was such a big part of the matrix costuming.

[26:54] And you can imagine holding up people.

[26:57] We're getting our hands all over that leather all day.

[27:00] So we had squeegees.

[27:02] We had spray bottles.

[27:03] I can tell you so much about the proper care and feeding of leather because you really do need to feed it.

[27:10] It's a living thing.

[27:11] Oils and ambulance.

[27:14] And,

Elliott Kalan

[27:14] you know,

[27:15] that's why we're actually listed twice in the credits.

[27:18] First is special stunt support.

[27:20] And then also later under a wardrobe consistency technician,

[27:23] just keeping that wardrobe looking consistent.

[27:26] Leather is very fingerprintable.

[27:28] It's very easy to crease,

[27:29] very easy to,

[27:30] to just get grease on it.

[27:32] And they serve so much fried food.

[27:34] And those actors eat it.

[27:35] Then they eat it.

[27:36] I,

[27:36] I've been on sets before these actors.

[27:38] They eat greasy food all day long.

[27:41] All the time.

[27:41] Because if you're an actor,

[27:42] you don't know.

[27:43] You're like,

[27:43] great,

[27:44] I'm getting catered lunch right now,

[27:45] but I might not work for a while.

[27:46] I may not get food again for a while.

S2

[27:48] Take me through a moment here where you're kind of,

[27:50] you know,

[27:51] doing both jobs in one day.

[27:53] Let's say one of you is holding up a body.

[27:54] The other one is sort of supporting that.

[27:57] And then they call cut the,

[27:59] you,

[28:00] you,

[28:00] you put Keanu or,

[28:01] or whatever other performer down,

[28:03] and then you immediately grab some squeegees and you start,

[28:06] you start kind of scrubbing them up.

Dan McCoy

[28:08] I mean,

[28:08] sometimes we have to work sort of in tandem,

[28:11] like a delicate ballet.

[28:13] You know,

[28:13] if,

[28:13] if there's movement required and Elliot's moving a body part,

[28:18] as soon as he moves his hand,

[28:19] I might swoop in quick little squeegee,

[28:22] because the more work that can be done in camera,

[28:25] the less that stuff needs to be taken out.

[28:27] In post.

[28:28] Yes.

S2

[28:28] What you're describing now makes me think there actually is a lot

[28:31] happening in post,

[28:32] because if you are in the shot and then you are squeegeeing,

[28:36] like they still have to remove you from the shot.

[28:38] So to me,

[28:39] like,

[28:39] and look,

[28:40] I am not a professional.

[28:41] So this is why it's so interesting to talk to you guys about this.

[28:43] Cause to me,

[28:43] I feel like it'd be easier to edit out a smudge on,

[28:46] on a pair of pants than a whole human body actively scrubbing someone

[28:51] else's body in the shot.

[28:52] But I must be wrong.

Elliott Kalan

[28:54] No,

[28:54] it's funny.

[28:54] You'd think that you'd think that,

[28:56] but the way that technology has developed,

[28:58] it's actually the opposite.

[28:59] Danny,

[28:59] I think I cut you off,

[29:00] but you were saying,

[29:01] I'm sure exactly what I was about to say.

Dan McCoy

[29:03] Well,

[29:03] yes.

[29:04] I mean,

[29:04] like,

[29:04] look,

[29:06] in terms of pure man hours,

[29:09] is it simpler?

[29:11] Maybe.

[29:12] But in terms of what looks good on camera,

[29:15] like if you want to make it look good,

[29:17] it's,

[29:18] it's way simpler to do it our way.

Elliott Kalan

[29:19] It's similar to how,

[29:21] it's when they were making psycho,

[29:22] Alfred Hitchcock was like,

[29:23] Oh,

[29:23] I need blood to pour down the shower.

[29:25] Get me some,

[29:26] some chocolate syrup.

[29:27] And they said,

[29:27] no,

[29:28] we have real human blood for you right here.

[29:29] And they tried it and it just didn't look like blood.

[29:31] It just didn't look like real blood on cameras.

[29:34] They had to use chocolate syrup.

[29:35] And I don't know what they did with that.

[29:37] Or where they got it.

[29:38] Or where they got it.

[29:39] Exactly.

[29:39] Back then they could do that.

[29:40] The studio system back then,

[29:42] the stories that I've heard.

[29:43] It was a real waste of blood.

[29:45] I just wanted to mention,

[29:45] it's funny that Dan referred to it as a delicate ballet.

[29:49] Cause that's really how I got into this.

[29:50] When I was young,

[29:51] I went to see the ballet.

[29:52] My family took me and I saw the male dancers lifting up the female dancers.

[29:56] And it just,

[29:57] I was like,

[29:58] that's what I want to do.

[29:59] I've found the thing that I want to do with my life.

[30:01] And I'm so lucky that I got to live out that childhood dream.

Dan McCoy

[30:05] Because unfortunately you,

[30:06] you had no talent for dance per se.

Elliott Kalan

[30:09] Yes.

[30:09] The little bit of time that I spent trying to learn the dance was a mistake.

[30:13] That was a waste of time.

[30:15] And I apologize to everyone who was hurt during that period.

[30:17] But the lifting,

[30:19] I found I had a talent for.

[30:20] And I remember when my teacher said to me,

[30:22] you need to leave this studio right now.

[30:24] But I want to see you lifting people.

[30:26] Or you've wasted your life.

[30:28] And I think about it all the time.

[30:30] I think about it all the time.

S2

[30:31] Wow.

[30:31] That does feel like one of those comments that sticks with you.

[30:34] So am I right to assume that the two of you sort of invented this job?

[30:38] And maybe this was the beginning of this being a role on a film set?

Dan McCoy

[30:41] Yes,

[30:41] that's true.

[30:42] We sort of hung out our shingle.

[30:43] And I'll tell you something.

[30:44] For many,

[30:45] many years,

[30:46] people were like,

[30:47] why?

[30:47] You know?

[30:48] But it just takes getting one foot in the door,

[30:52] a foot that we are holding up.

[30:54] And Hollywood opened up for us.

S2

[30:57] And I have to say,

[30:57] I'm sure most,

[30:59] if not all great artists in the history of time,

[31:02] have had someone say,

[31:03] why?

[31:04] When they first started,

[31:05] you know?

[31:06] Like,

[31:06] I'm sure Picasso got that.

[31:08] So it really feels like you guys knew in that moment,

[31:11] like,

[31:11] I'm going to keep with this because I know there's something special here.

Elliott Kalan

[31:14] We've used that Picasso comparison a lot,

[31:16] actually,

[31:17] in conversation with each other.

[31:18] And yeah,

[31:18] you're right.

[31:19] When he was first started painting pictures of people that are all messed up

[31:23] and broken into pieces and kind of mushed around,

[31:25] I'm sure people were confused by it.

[31:28] Is this even really painting?

[31:29] And that's kind of the way they felt with us.

[31:31] Early on,

[31:32] a lot of the time we'd get told,

[31:34] why can't we use wires for that?

[31:36] And luckily,

[31:37] luckily,

[31:38] choreography has gotten so intricate and so,

[31:41] so complicated.

[31:42] You got a tangling problem,

[31:44] you know?

[31:44] Yes,

[31:44] exactly.

[31:45] And I remember there was one job,

[31:47] I won't say the name of it.

[31:48] There was one director who said,

[31:49] no,

[31:49] I'm going to use wires.

[31:50] And then the wires got tangled and they came to us kind of sheepishly.

[31:54] And we said,

[31:56] we'll do it,

[31:56] but we're going to charge you three,

[31:58] three times what we were going to charge you before,

[31:59] just because of the insult.

[32:01] Shame on them.

[32:02] Anyway,

[32:02] that was James Cameron.

[32:03] I said,

[32:04] I wasn't going to mention his name,

[32:04] but I did.

[32:05] I think it's fair.

[32:06] And the movie was Titanic.

[32:07] Yes.

[32:08] And the movie was Titanic.

[32:09] Exactly.

[32:09] Yeah.

[32:09] Oh,

[32:09] so you,

[32:10] so you may,

[32:11] I mean,

[32:11] because we also,

[32:12] he said,

[32:12] I don't want to credit you in this.

[32:13] I'm going to just say we did it with wires because he was mad at us.

[32:16] And we said,

[32:16] then you're going to have to pay us more.

[32:18] So they actually paid us a no credit fee,

[32:19] but all that stuff.

[32:21] Kate was,

[32:21] it just could not,

[32:22] she could not stop slipping off that desk that was floating in the water.

S2

[32:26] I was just going to ask you what scene was it?

[32:28] Because I didn't,

[32:28] I don't remember a scene where there was someone being held up.

[32:30] So were you under the water?

Elliott Kalan

[32:32] Yes.

[32:32] So we were,

[32:33] we had scuba gear and we were actually balancing the desk and each with one hand.

[32:37] And we each had another hand on her ankle.

[32:39] Yeah.

[32:40] To kind of hold her in place on that because she's a naturally slippery person.

[32:43] She's a very talented actress,

[32:44] but naturally slippery.

[32:46] And it was hard work.

Dan McCoy

[32:47] It's sort of like the beginning of the Muppet movie,

[32:49] you know,

[32:49] where Kermit's playing in the middle of a swamp and you're like,

[32:52] where's,

[32:52] where's Jim Henson?

[32:53] It's,

[32:53] you know,

[32:53] it's all done with scuba gear and such.

[32:55] And frankly,

[32:56] you know,

[32:57] I,

[32:57] I'm glad that Cameron came through with the money,

[33:00] but all,

[33:01] you know,

[33:02] a little secret,

[33:02] we kept doubling our salary so often.

[33:05] That's a lot of why Titanic costs as much as it did.

S2

[33:08] Well,

[33:08] I always like to say in these interviews,

[33:09] you know,

[33:10] you have a platform right now.

[33:11] Is there a project you're working on where,

[33:13] you know,

[33:13] you'd love to see if you can get some traction here and just talk about it a bit?

Elliott Kalan

[33:17] Dan,

[33:17] do you want to talk about Island of the floaters or should I talk about Island of the floaters?

[33:22] Why don't you talk about?

[33:23] So Island of the floaters is an idea we've talked about where it's a world where everyone is hovering about three and a half,

[33:30] four feet off the ground at all times.

[33:31] And it's a romantic comedy.

[33:33] You know,

[33:33] it's really fun.

[33:34] It's silly.

[33:35] There's a lot of heart to it,

[33:37] but everyone's always floating.

[33:38] And so this is our chance.

[33:39] We feel like to employ all the people that we want to employ working as stunt supporters.

[33:45] And we'll be,

[33:46] and there'll be times in the movie where you'll see it happening.

[33:49] We will finally see the people holding them up.

[33:52] Not the whole time,

[33:53] but we'll ease you into it.

[33:54] It starts out there just floating and you're like,

[33:56] how is this happening?

[33:57] And then over time,

[33:58] you start to see the support people.

[34:00] And then eventually you just see just the support people.

[34:03] And the people,

[34:03] the actors that we're holding up aren't even on screen anymore.

[34:06] They're still there.

S2

[34:07] They're the ones that get painted out.

Elliott Kalan

[34:09] Exactly.

[34:10] Exactly.

S2

[34:10] How fascinating.

[34:12] That is so,

[34:13] what a cool idea.

[34:14] I mean,

[34:15] look,

[34:15] it feels pretty unique as far as I'm concerned.

[34:18] And,

[34:18] and,

[34:18] and quite a project,

[34:20] uh,

[34:20] quite an undertaking.

[34:21] But I think if there's anyone who could do it,

[34:22] it seems like you guys are,

[34:23] you're the pair,

[34:24] you know?

[34:25] We hope so.

[34:25] I mean,

[34:25] Hollywood's been afraid of it.

Dan McCoy

[34:26] Well,

[34:27] they keep telling us,

[34:28] you know,

[34:28] like there's no screenplay or story reason why these people need to be floating.

[34:32] And we're like,

[34:33] well,

[34:33] we're the reason,

[34:34] you know,

[34:35] Hollywood.

[34:35] Well,

S2

[34:36] and the reason is the title.

Dan McCoy

[34:37] Exactly.

[34:38] You get it.

S2

[34:38] The Island of the Floaters.

[34:39] Like,

[34:39] that's the reason.

[34:40] So that's almost confusing.

[34:41] They don't get that,

[34:43] you know?

[34:43] Yes.

Elliott Kalan

[34:43] It's like,

[34:44] if you make Star Wars,

[34:45] it's got to be among the stars.

[34:46] If you just call it Wars,

[34:48] it doesn't have to be.

[34:48] The title is the foundation that you build all that on.

[34:51] And it tells people what to expect.

[34:52] So you got to do it for the title.

S2

[34:54] Sometimes people in,

[34:55] in,

[34:56] in Hollywood just don't get it,

[34:57] you know?

Elliott Kalan

[34:58] Amen.

[34:59] Gatekeepers.

S2

[34:59] Well,

[34:59] I have to say,

[35:00] this has been such a wonderful interview,

[35:03] getting to know the two of you,

[35:04] learning about this role on a set that I never even knew existed.

[35:07] And I just,

[35:08] thank you so much for your,

[35:09] for your time today.

Elliott Kalan

[35:10] Thank you.

[35:11] Yeah.

[35:11] Thank you very much.

[35:11] We really appreciate your help with us getting the word out about this work.

[35:15] It's just so important to us.

S2

[35:16] I think it will continue.

[35:17] It sounds like you have a really cool thing on your hands here.

[35:19] Oh,

[35:20] pun.

John Hodgman

[35:22] And that's our show for today.

[35:23] Thank you to the Flophouse podcast,

[35:25] Elliot and Dan,

[35:26] plus John Hopkins.

[35:27] Join us next week for a chapter novelized by new girl,

[35:31] Steve Agee,

[35:32] and narrated by David Dos Malshian,

[35:34] who you've seen in Dune,

[35:36] Oppenheimer,

[35:36] Suicide Squad,

[35:37] and Late Night with the Devil.

[35:39] Till then,

S3

[35:40] Steven,

[35:40] unplug us from this matrix.

[35:42] You got it.

[35:43] The Novelizers is produced by me,

[35:45] Steven Levinson,

[35:46] with Graham Douglas,

[35:47] Kevin Carter,

[35:47] Christine Bowen,

[35:48] Dennis DiClaudio,

[35:49] Rob Kudner,

[35:50] and Suchadis Boquil.

[35:52] Music by Cole Emloff.

[35:53] Graphic design by Crystal Dennis.

[35:55] Theme song by Andrew Lin.

[35:57] Performed by Knotts.

[35:58] Special thanks to Chris Karwalski,

[36:00] and WYSO Radio in Yellow Springs,

[36:02] Ohio.

[36:03] The Novelizers is a work of parody,

[36:05] unauthorized by Warner Brothers.

[36:07] Follow The Novelizers on Instagram,

[36:08] threads,

[36:09] Facebook,

[36:10] and TikTok,

[36:10] and please donate to our Patreon.

[36:14] Novelizers,

[36:15] LLC.

[36:16] Take us out,

[36:17] Amy Mann.

S7

[36:19] There was a matrix

[36:21] made of computers.

[36:24] There was a guy

[36:26] who could dodge

[36:27] all of the bullets.

[36:29] He lived in fluid,

[36:31] just like a fetus.

[36:34] But he was born again

[36:36] like baby Jesus.

[36:40] Nomalize that movie,

[36:44] write a book,

[36:46] and also read it to me.

The Flop House on The Novelizers

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