FH Mini 103 - Siskel & Ebert, with Matt Singer

Elliott Kalan

[0:00] Hey there, floppers. This is Elliot speaking. Before we begin this week's, let's be nice and call it nonsense. I just wanted to make sure you knew about the live show stuff we have coming up in case you miss it later in the episode or just can't wait to hear about it.

[0:12] We are still in the streaming window for the Flophouse Sinks Speed 2, our virtual online video event. Just go to stagepilot.com slash speed and you'll be able to see that whole show with exclusive footage that the in-theater audience didn't get to see through May 19th. After May 19th, of course, it goes back to the Flophouse vault where it will never be seen again for a long time.

[0:35] Then on May 24th, we will be in Oxford, England as part of the Saint Audio Podcast Festival. We're doing two shows in one night, 7 p.m. and 9 p.m., two totally different shows, totally different movies, totally different presentations, totally different questions. It'll be great.

[0:48] And then for something even more completely different, on July 26th, we will be in Boston in person at WBUR City Space. We don't know what movie we're doing yet, but it'll be a fun show. It's going to be all new stuff. You're going to love it.

[1:00] So that's the Flophouse Sinks Speed 2 streaming now in Oxford, May 24th and in Boston, July 26th. And now on with our regular nonsense.

Dan McCoy

[1:13] Hello and welcome to this Flophouse Mini. That's what we do every other week when we're not talking about a bad movie. We talked about kind of whatever we want to talk about.

Elliott Kalan

[1:25] They're not the boss of us. We can do what we want, right, Dan?

Stuart Wellington

[1:28] Yeah, unlike the regular episodes where the movies show up holding a gun and they're like, talk about me. And I'm like, I don't want to.

Dan McCoy

[1:34] Honestly, if we wanted to, we could spend that time, you know, like, I don't know, ranking our favorite Ben and Jerry's flavors or something else.

[1:41] Damn.

[1:42] But we don't.

[1:43] Doughboys did it.

Matt Singer

[1:45] The scar giver. Attention must be paid to the scar giver.

Dan McCoy

[1:49] Well, let's introduce ourselves so we all know who that was. I'm Dan McCoy.

[1:54] I'm Stuart Wellington.

Elliott Kalan

[1:56] Yeah.

[1:56] I'm Elliot Kalin, the last of the regular three.

[1:59] But who's this joining us today?

[2:00] Why?

[2:01] It's special guest.

[2:02] The scar giver.

[2:03] Oh, God.

[2:04] No, we have a critic and author, Matt Singer, specifically here in connection with his current blockbuster number one bestselling book about movie reviewers.

[2:15] Absolutely.

Dan McCoy

[2:16] Well, this is what, I mean, I wanted to start off saying, like, okay, the book, of course, is last year's Opposable Thumbs, How Siskel and Ebert Changed Movies Forever.

[2:26] And honestly, like, I would have asked Matt to be on earlier, but he was doing, like, Good Morning America.

[2:31] And I'm like, let him cool down from, you know, taking a press tour of real things before I bother him about our show.

[2:39] You're a real thing, man.

[2:41] Yeah, I guess that's true.

[2:42] I do have mass and matter.

[2:46] But anyway, I just like, it's a great book.

[2:49] I want to compliment Matt, not only because I fear that sometimes that he might be annoyed at me when I show up in his letterbox comments to argue something, but also.

[2:59] Oh, Matt's nodding his head vigorously.

[3:01] No, I'm shaking my head vigorously.

[3:03] The opposite.

[3:05] The exact opposite.

[3:07] While I may argue in letterbox, I do not argue at all with his writing ever because Opposable Thumbs is really great.

[3:15] Like, I tore through it, and I'm sort of amazed not only by the amount of research it must have taken, but also the skill it takes to then take that research and turn it into something that's sort of breezy to read.

[3:28] So, thank you for writing a book that I was like, I got to get this book, and not just because I know this guy immediately.

Stuart Wellington

[3:37] And while Dan might argue with you on letterbox, you're only going to see me come out when you are reviewing what, like, Slimer-flavored potato chips on your Instagram.

[3:47] That's true.

[3:47] Which I'm like, this is, I'm enraptured by this content.

Elliott Kalan

[3:51] In addition to being an incredibly talented writer and critic, Matt is also, of course, a masochist.

Matt Singer

[4:00] I was going to say, a horrible masochist who loves punishing myself by eating the worst movie-related food.

[4:07] Yes.

Elliott Kalan

[4:08] That's true.

[4:09] That has to be something that at a certain point you were like, why did I make this a thing that I do?

[4:13] Why?

Matt Singer

[4:14] Yes, regularly.

[4:15] As a matter of fact, last night, I got a text at, like, 11 o'clock at night from our friend Griffin Newman, who texted me.

[4:22] And he's like, I am out on the IF IHOP menu.

[4:26] And I was like, wait a minute, what?

[4:30] Now, I knew that there was also a Baskin-Robbins IF menu.

[4:35] I already knew about that.

[4:36] So I thought he made a mistake.

[4:37] I was like, oh, do you mean the Baskin-Robbins thing?

[4:39] Ah, very funny.

[4:40] He's like, no, there's an IF one too.

[4:42] And he sent it to me.

[4:43] And this thing has blue pancakes with fruity pebbles and, like, vanilla mousse.

[4:49] It's got a French toast sandwich.

[4:52] It has a pizza omelet, which could be one of two different things, just based on the title.

[4:57] I mean, it is so, so much.

[5:00] Just every item is so – it looks like it was made specifically to punish me for something I did.

[5:06] And that – so, yes.

[5:08] And that was one of those moments where I was like, how did this become a thing that I do?

[5:11] And I have to do it by myself now, unless one of you guys want to come.

[5:15] Because Griffin, who came recently and at least shared the IHOP Wonka menu with me, is already like, there's no way I'm putting any of these things in my mouth.

[5:25] So, I'm in real trouble.

Stuart Wellington

[5:27] I think Dan's health is doing pretty good these days.

[5:30] He should do a lot of yoga.

Dan McCoy

[5:32] He should do that shit with you.

[5:32] It's true.

[5:33] I've lost some weight, so maybe I should put it back on.

[5:36] Yeah.

[5:36] In the cause of IF.

Elliott Kalan

[5:37] Yeah.

[5:38] Yeah.

[5:38] The most important cause.

[5:40] Matt, I want to thank you for putting into focus and into perspective.

[5:44] The argument in my house right now is that my kids really want to see IF, and I do not want to see it.

[5:49] And so, but knowing that I would just be putting the movie into my eyes and ears and not actually ingesting it as food into my stomach makes it a little bit more understandable.

[5:58] That there's a worse scenario that I could be in.

Matt Singer

[6:00] There's a worse form of IF to literally ingest.

Elliott Kalan

[6:04] Now, would you rather it was a menu based on Lindsay Anderson's IF starring Malcolm McDowell?

[6:09] I love the idea of like British school food.

[6:12] Yeah, yeah.

[6:13] A lot of like puddings.

[6:14] A lot of like, yeah, boiled meats.

[6:17] Yeah, I can only imagine the.

[6:18] How do we turn the ellipsis into foods?

Matt Singer

[6:20] Maybe it's a food with like three little portions.

[6:23] It's like a, it's a progression in some way.

[6:25] Yeah.

Stuart Wellington

[6:26] The fucking Imagineers over at IHOP are like, okay, we're going to need the Matt Singer bump.

[6:32] What kind of fucked up nasty shit can we put on here?

Matt Singer

[6:36] I don't think it has anything to do with me in all sincerity, but I genuinely have been wondering like, who are the people that work over there?

[6:42] Who are, whose job?

[6:44] Someone's job it is to be like, what kind of messed up shit can we make this time?

[6:48] Sounds like you got your next book.

[6:49] You got your next book right there.

[6:50] Cormac McCarthy.

Elliott Kalan

[6:53] Yeah, the late Cormac McCarthy was like, my ideas that are too twisted for literature, I put them in the IHOP menu.

[6:59] Yeah.

Dan McCoy

[7:00] Matt Singer's going to write movie food nation.

[7:04] Hold on, let me write that down somewhere.

[7:06] Wait a minute.

[7:07] Hold on.

[7:07] This is good.

[7:10] So, yeah, I was going to, my idea was, you know, I talked to you a little bit about Siskel and Ebert, old interview style, like normal style.

[7:19] And then the second half, we're going to do kind of a game, but not really.

[7:22] You'll see when we get to it.

[7:24] Don't oversell it.

[7:25] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[7:27] I like to undersell and not over-deliver, but deliver about where you might have expected originally, you know, so it still seems like a game.

Elliott Kalan

[7:35] But actually underselling, it seems like over-delivering.

[7:37] Yes, exactly.

[7:37] Because our standards have been set so low.

Dan McCoy

[7:42] My secret.

[7:42] Okay.

[7:43] Okay.

[7:43] So, I think a lot of fans have, like, a lot of movie people have a particular fondness for Roger Ebert specifically, because I think he wrote with, like, a lot of personality and personal liveliness.

[7:58] And his writing was sort of better preserved.

[8:01] And, of course, he outlived Gene.

[8:03] So, he had more.

[8:04] So, first off, I'm going to, like, make the case for Gene.

[8:07] Make the case for Gene.

[8:09] Because I feel like, you know, I feel like, you know, Roger is more remembered.

Matt Singer

[8:14] I don't think that's an outrageous statement at all.

[8:18] I think you're absolutely right about that.

[8:20] And it's something I kind of thought about when I was doing the book.

[8:25] I mean, I think this is one thing that I really appreciated about Gene that I, if I knew it as a kid, it certainly, kind of, doing the research and revisiting all the episodes, watching all this stuff, it definitely kind of made me appreciate it anew.

[8:43] Which is that he was absolutely, in any other profession, he would have been described as honest to a fault.

[8:51] In this profession, perhaps it would be honest to a plus, to a benefit.

[8:55] And he was absolutely fearless about saying anything he believed in any scenario, in any context, and to anyone.

[9:04] You know, like, he wouldn't just say honestly, sometimes very mean things on Siskel and Ebert, and then he would go on The Tonight Show and schmooze with the guests.

[9:15] He would say these things on Siskel and Ebert, where, you know, it was just him and Roger and the crew.

[9:19] And then he would go on The Tonight Show and then say it to the faces of the people he was talking about.

[9:23] He would just be absolutely transparent about the fact that he didn't like something.

[9:28] Or, flip side, maybe he liked it.

[9:30] But, you know, there's the very famous viral clip of Siskel and Ebert on The Tonight Show with Chevy Chase, where Chevy Chase is there to promote Three Amigos.

[9:40] And Carson asks both of them, like, you know, I don't want to do a Johnny Carson impression.

[9:47] Do an impression.

[9:48] Yeah, do it.

[9:50] Is there a, I don't, I can't, I suddenly have forgotten the ability to do Johnny Carson.

[9:54] You did it great.

[9:55] You did it great.

[9:55] Yeah, it's pretty good.

[9:56] Well, it's me, Johnny Carson.

[9:58] It's me, yeah.

[9:59] Jimmy Carson.

[10:01] That's right.

[10:02] So he asks, like, what's the worst Christmas movie?

[10:05] And I think it's Roger who goes first and is like, I can't in any good conscience recommend Three Amigos.

[10:13] And Chevy Chase, it's The Tonight Show, the old school Tonight Show, where the guests just hang out on the couch all night.

[10:18] So Chevy is sitting right there next to him.

[10:20] And he kind of, like, kind of smiles.

[10:22] And everyone, the audience goes, ooh.

[10:26] And it keeps going.

[10:27] Like, the whole segment becomes this sort of dance.

[10:29] There's an audience of bears that night.

Elliott Kalan

[10:31] It's like every Friday, Johnny Carson's audience would be bears.

[10:36] It was the thing they did.

[10:36] They called it Barely an Audience Fridays.

[10:39] Yes.

[10:40] Yes.

[10:40] I should have mentioned that.

[10:41] You're right.

Matt Singer

[10:41] That's an important context that I left out.

[10:44] But, you know, it becomes this kind of dance between them where Chevy's not trying to get too upset.

[10:50] He's kind of playing along with them.

[10:52] But they're being honest that they think his movie sucks.

[10:55] And that was not an isolated incident.

[10:57] They would both do it.

[10:59] But really, Gene, I think of as the guy who was, you know, like, Roger liked having friends with filmmakers.

[11:05] Yeah, he would be honest.

[11:05] But he would go to film festivals.

[11:07] He would schmooze.

[11:08] He would hang.

[11:08] Gene would always say, and I really believe it.

[11:10] He had, like, no interest in socializing with filmmakers, hanging out in Hollywood.

[11:14] He didn't have a lot of filmmaker friends as far as I know and as people told me when I, you know, did my research and stuff.

[11:21] He really didn't care.

[11:23] So he didn't really spare their feelings.

[11:26] And, again, in another world, you know, like maybe in another world, that's not such a great thing.

[11:30] But as a critic, I really respect that about him because, you know, he was never tempering his feelings to make a publicist happy, make a filmmaker happy, make anybody happy.

[11:39] He was just going to say what he honestly thought.

[11:42] And I think there's a value in that, at least as a film critic.

[11:47] Yeah.

Dan McCoy

[11:48] Well, I mean, that actually plays into something else I had in my notes about how they could get kind of hilariously mean at times.

[11:55] Like, Roger's famous, I hated, hated, hated this movie.

[11:58] I hated it.

[11:59] I hated every, you know, like, of North.

[12:02] And I was wondering about sort of that whole no punches criticism.

[12:08] Like, I feel like you see it amongst assholes on the internet.

[12:11] I mean, perhaps sometimes us even.

[12:14] Yeah, we're assholes on the internet.

[12:18] But I feel like it's less common amongst major…

[12:20] Normally you gotta pay to see assholes on the internet.

[12:27] Jesus Christ.

[12:29] No, I just, like, I feel like it's less common.

[12:31] I mean, like, there's fewer big critics these days.

[12:36] So maybe that's just part of it.

[12:37] But, like, I feel like they had enough clout that they didn't have to worry about access as much maybe.

[12:44] And that's, I don't know.

[12:45] Do you think there's anything in that?

Matt Singer

[12:47] Well, I mean, you're not wrong.

[12:49] I mean, they did get to a certain point where they were, you know, quite powerful.

[12:55] I mean, they, you know, there was a, in the early days of Entertainment Weekly, they did a, I think they called it the power list or the Hollywood list, something like that, where they ranked the most powerful people in Hollywood.

[13:05] And they put Siskel and Ebert at number 10, which put them below the head of Disney, the company they were syndicated by at the time, Michael Eisner.

[13:14] But it put them above Jeffrey Katzenberg, who was sort of the executive overseeing the part of the company that they worked for, which is sort of surreal.

[13:23] And it does speak to the degree to which they were seen as these kingmakers at the time.

[13:29] And, you know, there are examples of studios getting angry at them for mean reviews and for doing exactly what we're talking about.

[13:36] There's a famous story of them being on, I think it was Regis and Kathie Lee.

[13:40] And they were there promoting an Oscar special or something.

[13:43] And, of course, because they're film critics and they're on a talk show, the hosts are asking them, like, is this movie good?

[13:49] Is that movie good?

[13:50] And they started going off on, I want to say it was Nuns on the Run.

[13:55] And just mercilessly making fun of the movie.

[13:58] And, you know, like, they're trying to be entertaining, which they often really were very good entertaining talk show guests.

[14:04] And the studio that was involved with that, and I want to say it's Fox, could be wrong.

[14:10] It's been a little while since I did this research.

Elliott Kalan

[14:13] Can you check your poster of Nuns on the Run that I see right behind you in your rear?

[14:17] Yes.

Matt Singer

[14:18] Yes.

[14:19] The studio got furious that they did this.

[14:22] And they banned them.

[14:24] You're banned.

[14:25] You're banned from all screenings forever.

[14:27] Because you're, you know, they claimed that they objected not to their reviews.

[14:32] They were entitled to their opinions.

[14:34] But that they were, like, making fun of it on an appearance that had nothing to, you know, they were on a talk show and they were just making jokes, cracking easy jokes or something like that.

[14:43] And, you know, they had this whole big thing.

[14:46] And they were completely unfazed.

[14:47] They said, that's fine.

[14:48] We'll go pay and see the movies when we can see them.

[14:50] We'll write reviews if we can in time.

[14:53] If we can.

[14:54] If we can.

[14:54] And if we won't, we won't cover your movies.

[14:56] And we won't review them on our show.

[14:58] And supposedly they privately, between the two of them, discussed this and made a bet about when the ban would be reversed.

[15:08] And Gene thought it would last one movie.

[15:11] And Roger said, we'll be invited back before the same studio has another movie.

[15:15] And he was right.

[15:16] They didn't, the ban did not last a movie.

[15:20] The very next movie that Fox or whoever it was had, they were invited back to the screening.

Stuart Wellington

[15:27] I wonder what movie the studio was like, we need these guys to see this.

[15:32] They're going to love it.

Matt Singer

[15:33] North!

[15:35] Oh, no.

[15:36] Exactly.

[15:37] But, I mean, again, like, that just shows, yes, they definitely had the juice.

[15:42] And this is like, we're talking about the early 90s, I think.

[15:45] And that's, you know, in that period, they definitely had that aura about them.

[15:50] Whether it was always true or not that they could make or break a movie, there was definitely a period where they were seen in that light.

Dan McCoy

[15:59] So this is a bad movie podcast, primarily.

[16:04] I'm going to focus sort of a little.

[16:06] Let's not live it ourselves, but okay, sure.

[16:08] I mean, you think of us as, you know, sort of a culture and what, baking podcast, maybe?

Elliott Kalan

[16:13] Yeah, baking and general lifestyle.

[16:15] Educational, yeah.

[16:16] I've been meaning to get onto scented candles at some point in this podcast, and I just never find the time, usually.

Stuart Wellington

[16:21] You guys razz me for being into astrology, but Elliot's scented candles, fucking multi-level marketing scheme he's been trying to pull on.

[16:32] Yeah, exactly.

Elliott Kalan

[16:32] That's an interesting way to describe people helping people to find the best candles with the best scents.

Dan McCoy

[16:40] Well, anyways, bad movies are our purview.

[16:43] I was going to focus maybe on Siskel and Ebert and, if not bad movies, movies they disliked.

[16:52] And one thing I wanted to say is, like, they seem to have particular issues with certain movies, like stuff that you might categorize as a blind spot.

[17:02] And I'm thinking most specifically about their aversion to a lot of horror, slasher movies in particular during the 80s.

[17:11] And yet, there would be moments like the one where, like, Roger Ebert gave Last House on the Left four stars.

[17:18] And number one, I just, you know, I was curious, as you watch so many of their reviews, like, whether there are other things where you're like, oh, this is like a blind spot of this person or that person.

[17:29] And also, like, what do you make of the moments where they sort of cut against the tide?

Matt Singer

[17:34] Cut against their own tide or cut against them?

[17:36] Their own tide, yeah.

Dan McCoy

[17:37] Like, do something, like, give something like Last House a rave.

[17:42] Right.

Matt Singer

[17:43] Those moments are fun because, I mean, to give you an idea of, like, when I was doing the research, I tried to watch every single episode of the show, as many as I possibly could.

[17:52] And at the time, you know, like, not every single episode was available online, but the vast, vast majority was.

[18:01] So that was part of the fun of, like, watching every episode in order and, like, kind of trying to game it would be a movie would come up.

[18:08] And sometimes I would know what the review was, if it was a famous movie.

[18:12] You know, like, I knew they gave Speed 2 Cruise Control two thumbs up to speak of a bad movie.

[18:19] You know, I knew that Roger gave Die Hard thumbs down but gave Speed 2 Cruise Control thumbs up.

[18:25] Like, I knew stuff like that.

[18:26] But then there would be times.

[18:26] On the same day.

[18:28] Yes.

[18:28] So Die Hard was already a famous movie by then.

[18:30] He just kept bringing it up.

[18:32] He just couldn't, he couldn't, he hated it.

[18:34] He kept piling on.

[18:36] So there, but there were times where I wouldn't know.

[18:38] And it was sort of fun to be like, well, what are they?

[18:40] Like, is this going to be one of those movies that surprises me?

[18:44] And many times there were surprises like that.

[18:48] In terms of, like, horror specifically, yes, they definitely gave a lot of negative reviews to horror movies.

[18:55] Mostly in, like, the period, the early days of the show.

[18:58] Like, they really, they both liked Halloween.

[19:01] But then it seems like so many bad Halloween knockoffs came out in the years after that.

[19:08] That they really grew very sick of just maybe slasher movies in general.

[19:13] But just, like, bad, you know, schlocky.

[19:15] Yeah.

[19:15] Exploitation movies.

[19:16] And there's so many that they actually did, whether you agree with them or not.

[19:21] And, you know, I'm not, if I'm not judging anyone.

[19:23] If you love late 70s, early 80s, you know, like, exploitation movies and slasher movies, wonderful.

[19:30] But there was a really interesting episode of the show where they did, like, a whole episode about this phenomenon.

[19:36] And I think if you just, like, type, you know, Google Siskel Ebert slasher movies or something like that, it'll probably come up.

[19:44] The title is something like Extreme Violence Against Women is, like, the name of the episode.

[19:50] And it's an interesting, you know, it's a very interesting, like, half hour.

[19:55] It's almost like a prototypical video essay in a way, you know, pre-YouTube.

[20:01] Because they're showing clips from the movies and making arguments about them.

[20:05] And, again, you might agree or disagree.

[20:07] But it's a very interesting, like, half hour to watch.

[20:10] It's a work of film criticism on television, you know.

[20:14] To the people who always dismiss Siskel and Ebert as, oh, it's just these two guys.

[20:19] They give thumbs.

[20:19] They've ruined film criticism.

[20:22] They've turned it into this binary thing.

[20:24] Like, it sort of puts the lie to that, whether you agree with them or not.

Elliott Kalan

[20:29] That sounds – you bring up something that I hadn't really thought about enough, I think, which is that they were also reviewing at a time when, if it was going to be in the theaters, basically, they were seeing it, right?

[20:40] And now we live in a time where there's so many different outlets for movies that you, as a critic, you are not going to see everything that's potential that's coming out.

[20:49] So one day they might be watching a big, classy Hollywood movie, and the next they're going to be watching kind of cheap schlock.

[20:56] And so they were probably also – if you really don't like that stuff, you're being reminded constantly of what else you could be watching at the same time.

[21:04] You're watching stuff that now probably wouldn't reach the level of being reviewed by a major critic in the same way, I'm guessing.

Matt Singer

[21:13] You're absolutely right.

[21:14] In that time period, being like the daily critic at a big newspaper like the Chicago Sun-Times, the Chicago Tribune, really was to try to see as many movies that are opening in that town every week as possible.

[21:27] And so they probably were not seeing everything a lot of weeks, but they were seeing a lot of stuff.

[21:33] And it's pretty interesting because if you watch those really early episodes, you'll see they're not just going to press screenings.

[21:40] They'll say, I went to the so-and-so theater this week, and I saw this weird horror movie that so-and-so attacks.

[21:49] And it's like – it's much more like I'm just going to the movies to see what's playing, and here's what I saw.

[21:57] And it does have that survey quality to it.

[22:01] Whereas you're right.

[22:01] Now, A, there's so many movies coming out all the time every single week.

[22:06] It literally would be impossible for any person to see them all.

[22:09] And even at the – B, there's almost no film critics at newspapers or magazines doing that sort of approach to the job anymore.

[22:18] And C, the newspapers that do care enough to do this kind of stuff like the New York Times, A, they don't cover everything.

[22:25] And B, they have multiple full-time critics, plus they farm out stuff to freelancers.

[22:31] So, yeah, nobody is seeing as much as critics like Siskel and Ebert did in that day and age.

[22:38] So, yes, part of it might just be – right.

[22:41] They didn't have a choice.

[22:42] They had to go see these horror movies.

[22:44] And if you're seeing two of them every week for three straight years, even if you like that kind of thing, it might get a little tiresome.

Stuart Wellington

[22:51] Dan was born too late, I think.

[22:53] Dan would love that.

[22:54] I would have.

Elliott Kalan

[22:55] Oh, Dan would have really been haunting those Times Square theaters or whatever the Times Square equivalent of – in Eureka, Illinois.

Dan McCoy

[23:02] Making my job to just be in a movie theater all the time?

[23:06] Sure, I'll eat it up.

Elliott Kalan

[23:07] You could have that job right now, Dan, if you work in a movie theater.

Dan McCoy

[23:11] Oh, wait.

[23:12] Hold on.

[23:13] No, but I – that's the part of it, actually, the answer that I zeroed in on.

[23:18] Like, a similar thing where, yeah, if there were that many post-Halloween slasher knockoffs and you're also predisposed maybe to think that, like, oh, they're too violent or whatever.

[23:32] But, like, just being tired of it, you know, being tired of it.

[23:36] And I was wondering – sorry to diverge from Siskel Lieber into you, Matt – but I guess based on what you said, maybe you don't have to see as much to make this be true.

[23:49] But other than superhero movies, which is sort of the easy mode answer, is there something that you're just, like, maybe now in a vacuum you would like it more, but you're so sick of that type of thing that you wonder whether you're, like, verging it.

[24:04] You're like, I just can't.

[24:05] I can't anymore with this.

Elliott Kalan

[24:06] You might like a blue pancake with Fruity Pebbles on it if it wasn't.

[24:09] Yeah.

[24:10] That's probably the right –

[24:11] After a long line of – yeah.

Matt Singer

[24:12] Yeah, that's probably the right answer.

[24:13] That's what I'm sick of, yes.

[24:15] Yeah.

[24:15] Poisoning myself slowly year by year.

Stuart Wellington

[24:18] Matt, have you had to eat any promotional Pop-Tarts for Unfrosted yet?

Matt Singer

[24:25] You joke, but there were, like, trap pops, if you've seen the film.

[24:32] There were, like, branded with Jerry Seinfeld's face, and I went to the grocery store looking for them.

[24:39] I was going to eat Unfrosted Pop-Tarts.

Elliott Kalan

[24:42] I love that shit.

Matt Singer

[24:44] I'll keep looking.

[24:44] I haven't found them yet.

[24:46] But –

[24:46] Yeah, yeah.

Elliott Kalan

[24:47] But in terms of movies, you were going to say, what's –

[24:49] Yes.

Matt Singer

[24:49] Is there something that you're like –

Elliott Kalan

[24:50] No, I want to hear more about his Vore content.

Matt Singer

[24:55] I'm honestly kind of like Dan in the sense that I kind of –

[25:00] I never got to have that Siskel and Ebert experience, and I kind of think I would –

[25:05] Yeah.

[25:05] I might enjoy it.

[25:06] Maybe not after – I mean, they did that, you know, in the case of Gene for 25, 30 years, in the case of Roger, 40 years.

[25:15] And so maybe by the end of it, it would have – I could see how it could become exhausting.

[25:20] But I don't know.

[25:22] You know, like, I've done – I started doing this thing recently where, you know, I'm going to press screenings.

[25:28] And most of the press screenings in New York, you know, the ones that I can go to because I have kids and I have to work during the day are, like, evenings.

[25:35] But they're early evening.

[25:37] And so I've started to go to movies, like, make it a double feature and go afterwards to see things.

[25:43] And I've been doing it more and more now that my kids are a little older and, you know, like, I feel like I don't have to rush home.

[25:49] And I'm also, like, sleeping more so I don't feel like I'm on the verge of complete collapse all the time.

[25:55] And I'm really, like, loving it.

[25:57] Yeah.

[25:57] I'm enjoying going to movies.

[25:59] Like, last week I saw – I saw the TV glow.

[26:05] And then afterwards I went and saw Challengers.

[26:07] And I was like –

Elliott Kalan

[26:07] Oh, wow.

[26:08] That's a fun double feature.

Matt Singer

[26:09] I was like Vin Diesel going, the movies.

[26:12] You know, like, I was really –

[26:14] I was digging it.

[26:16] So, I don't know.

[26:16] I guess, you know, like, I am in – I'm fortunate that I do get to see a lot of stuff and write about a lot of stuff.

[26:23] But I wouldn't mind seeing more things and getting to cover more things.

[26:28] It's sort of the double-edged sword of it's never enough, you know.

[26:31] Like, I wouldn't mind seeing some more.

[26:33] Maybe not 30 slasher movies in a month.

[26:37] But I could stand a few more in my life, to be honest with you.

Dan McCoy

[26:41] You know, when I was a kid, my parents basically never took us to the movie – like, to the theater.

[26:46] Like, that was what I wanted to do with my birthday because, like, I was like, yeah, finally a chance to see a movie in the theater.

[26:54] Barton Fink.

[26:55] Barton Fink.

[26:56] Yeah, exactly.

[26:56] And sometimes I wonder whether it's, like, that Harpo Marks story where he, like, loved licorice, black jelly beans when he was a kid.

[27:05] But there's only one ever in a bag.

[27:07] And he, like – and then when he was an adult, he's like, I'm just going to buy a fuck ton of black jelly beans and eat them until I'm sick, you know.

[27:14] And, yeah.

[27:15] Anyway, this is not therapy.

[27:16] So, are you sick yet?

Stuart Wellington

[27:17] Or have you blown yourself out?

Dan McCoy

[27:19] Like, have you smoked a tire curtain of cigarettes yet?

[27:20] I feel like that is life-releading right now.

[27:22] Yeah.

[27:22] I might be approaching sick.

[27:23] But let's move on to another question.

[27:27] And that is just – one thing that kind of hit me in the book is how shows like, say, The Flophouse or any other cultural discussion show would not exist without Siskel and Ebert.

[27:39] Because they kind of, like, the ones who made the format big.

[27:46] The idea that you could just talk about movies and people would find entertaining.

[27:51] I don't know.

[27:52] Like, what do you think the Downriver influence is?

[27:54] Did you think a lot about this?

[27:56] I know that you sort of get into it at parts of the book.

Matt Singer

[27:58] Oh, absolutely.

[27:59] I mean, I do think that the whole sort of movie discussion industrial complex is kind of – Stuart is fist-pumping.

[28:10] That's gross.

[28:11] Yeah.

[28:12] I mean, the thing that is interesting that's different, though, is that the world of movie podcasts, which I love.

[28:23] I used to host two different movie podcasts, and I listen to a lot of podcasts, including yours.

[28:28] You know, there's a bunch that I listen to every single week.

[28:30] There's others I kind of dip in and out of.

[28:31] But you listen to ours first, right?

Elliott Kalan

[28:33] Like, ours is the first one you listen to.

[28:34] Let's start.

[28:35] Always.

[28:36] Always.

[28:37] Always.

[28:37] And then you listen to the episode again.

Matt Singer

[28:39] I only listen – I listen to the one that you guys had me on every week over and over.

[28:43] And then I get to the new ones because it's all about me.

[28:47] But then I dabble into the other ones.

[28:50] No, but this is the – but I really did think about this, though.

[28:53] It's like the difference, though, is that – and you guys are a perfect example.

[28:57] Like, you guys are friends.

[28:59] You enjoy talking to each other and conversing.

[29:02] And there's a – to a certain extent, you guys would be doing this whether there was a podcast involved or not.

[29:08] Maybe not at this length.

[29:10] Maybe not this regularly.

[29:11] But you would be talking about movies.

[29:13] You would be making jokes.

[29:14] You would be watching things.

[29:16] And that's true of, frankly, every single podcast I know of.

[29:21] I can't think – I don't know of an example of a podcast that's been going on for any length of time.

[29:26] That's two people who hate each other or are intense rivals who really, like, don't socialize, can't stand each other, and have a professional relationship only.

[29:38] Like, that's the part that's different.

[29:41] It's like the discussion part is what kind of filtered down into podcasts.

[29:46] But that aspect is not as present.

[29:50] And that's something I find interesting is that, like, of all the podcasts that are out there, there isn't one like that.

[29:55] Maybe that's a niche that someone – we're waiting for someone to fill.

[30:00] And it's not like I sit listening to The Flophouse or any other podcast going, boy, I wish these people hated each other.

[30:06] But it is something.

[30:09] It's an element of that original formula.

[30:11] Give us five more years, Matt.

Dan McCoy

[30:12] We'll get there.

[30:13] Yeah, you'll get there.

[30:13] Slowly, slowly.

Stuart Wellington

[30:15] I feel conflict is a big part.

[30:16] Like, I feel like that's part of the appeal of the Doughboys is there's, like, a little bit of conflict there.

Matt Singer

[30:22] Yeah, they do sometimes have – there's a little tension there, yeah.

[30:25] But it's not like a – but, yeah.

[30:28] And that's a good example, I suppose.

[30:30] But it's like I don't see the Siskel and Ebert of podcasts in a real strict way.

[30:36] You could say, well, this podcast has two people.

[30:38] They're very intelligent critics.

[30:40] I'm interested in their thoughts.

[30:42] They have different perspectives.

[30:43] There's lots of examples of that.

[30:44] But in terms of, like – and also, these people kind of can't stand each other or at least – that's where it started.

[30:52] Maybe now they – oh, they can kind of get along.

[30:53] They respect each other now.

[30:55] Right.

[30:55] They have reached this sort of understanding or mutual respect.

[30:58] But it all started from this guy pisses me off and I'm going to kind of tell him to his face.

[31:03] Like that energy – I don't know of a – look, if there's a podcast out there like that, I would be interested to hear it.

[31:11] Please tell me about it.

Elliott Kalan

[31:12] Well, the fact that they were brought together right from the point of view of like these guys will argue with each other.

[31:17] Like these are – yeah.

[31:18] Yeah.

[31:19] They will – and that – yeah, that the relationship kind of continued to be that way of like being professional colleagues rather than – they wouldn't be like best man at each other's weddings or anything like that.

[31:30] Right.

[31:30] And they weren't.

Matt Singer

[31:31] They literally were not.

[31:33] Although Gene's daughters I think were the flower girls at Roger's wedding.

[31:38] He was – Gene was not the best man at Roger's wedding.

[31:41] But yes, you're absolutely right.

[31:42] And it's like – it's a good point to note that like even though it was – we think of it as Siskel and Ebert.

[31:48] That's the name I certainly think of even though it wasn't always called that.

[31:51] Like it wasn't like Siskel and Ebert got together and said we're going to make a show.

[31:55] Yeah.

[31:55] They were – in the beginning they were hired guns.

[31:58] They were brought in by other people to host the show.

[32:02] And to some extent maybe it was the thought that they would argue.

[32:07] But I think even more than that it was just – it was a Chicago-based show and they were the big critics in town.

[32:12] And they were the ones who really kind of approached it as like I don't really like this guy and I'm going to make that a part of this.

[32:21] Because it was – I mean I genuinely believe if Roger Ebert had created the show, Gene Siskel would not have been his co-host, his choice, and vice versa.

[32:30] They would have found somebody else to do it with.

[32:32] They would not have wanted to do it with the other one.

[32:34] It was only because they were sort of put together and they kind of didn't have a choice.

[32:38] But they both sensed this is a good opportunity that they went along with it.

Elliott Kalan

[32:43] Instead it would have been Siskel and Shallot.

Matt Singer

[32:46] Or whoever else was –

Elliott Kalan

[32:48] Siskel and Whipple.

Matt Singer

[32:49] Shallot and Whipple is a real –

[32:54] Oh, wow.

[32:55] And they hate each other.

[32:58] Hate each other.

[32:59] If that's not a sketch, a sketch comedy sketch for an audience of one person who's named Pat Singer, I don't know what is because that sounds great.

S5

[33:14] Hello, teachers and faculty.

[33:18] This is Janet Varney.

[33:19] I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year.

[33:28] Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience.

[33:38] One you have no choice but to embrace.

[33:41] Because yes, listening is mandatory.

[33:43] The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

[33:50] Thank you.

[33:51] And remember, no running in the halls.

Dan McCoy

[33:57] If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-O-D-C-A-S-T-I.

[34:03] Hmm.

[34:04] Were you trying to put the name of the podcast there?

[34:06] Yeah, I'm trying to spell it, but it's tricky.

Stuart Wellington

[34:08] Let me give it a try.

[34:09] Okay.

[34:10] If you need a laugh and you're on the go, call S-T-O-P-P-P-A-D-I.

[34:16] It'll never fit.

Dan McCoy

[34:17] No, it will.

[34:18] Let me try.

[34:19] If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-P-D-C-O-O.

[34:25] Ah, we are so close.

[34:27] Stop podcasting yourself.

Stuart Wellington

[34:29] A podcast from MaximumFun.org.

Dan McCoy

[34:32] If you need a laugh and you're on the go.

[34:36] Hey, the Flophouse is brought to you by the spring cleaning champions, Manscaped.

[34:42] This season, make sure to groom your carpets and the drapes with the leaders in below the waist grooming.

[34:50] Clear out that winter bush.

[34:52] I'm not talking about holly or ivy.

[34:56] With Manscaped's Lawn Mower 5.0.

[35:01] And watch your confidence bloom like the springtime flowers.

[35:07] And look, you know, I'm not going to get too far into it, but I've experimented with grooming in the past.

[35:16] Sometimes you get itchy.

[35:18] Sometimes there's some snagging.

[35:21] This is a good product.

[35:23] And despite the name, you know, it's not just for guys.

[35:26] This is an all-gendered scaping tool that is built for the job.

[35:34] So, if that is of interest to you, you can get 20% off and free shipping with the code FLOP at manscaped.com.

[35:45] That is 20% off and free shipping with the code FLOP at manscaped.com.

[35:52] Nothing like a little spring cleaning in your pants.

[36:01] And also, now the natural transition from downstairs grooming to our personal plugs.

[36:09] And that is to say that, hey, you can still, for a very short period of time, if you are listening to this when it first came out, I believe this episode will drop on May 18th.

[36:22] So, you still have a slim window of time.

[36:25] This is the last weekend.

[36:26] You can watch our video on demand FLOPHOUSE SYNC's Speed 2 show.

[36:32] That is a beautifully shot and edited version of a live show we did in Los Angeles with a little extra behind-the-scenes stuff as well.

[36:41] You can watch it in your home at your leisure until midnight on May 19th.

[36:48] And if you're interested in that, go to stagepilot.com slash speed.

[36:53] We also have a couple of shows in Oxford, England at the end of May.

[37:01] International FLOPHOUSE.

[37:02] I mean, I know we've been to Canada before.

[37:04] Fine, fine, fine.

[37:05] But we are going across the pond, as they say, which is a misnomer.

[37:09] I'm not sure that you all know this, but it's much larger than a pond.

[37:13] Yeah, it's true.

[37:14] On May the 24th at Oxford Town Hall, we're going to be doing two shows.

[37:19] One at 7 p.m.

[37:20] It's about the Avengers, the one with Ralph Fiennes and Uma Thurman.

[37:24] Not the one with all your favorite Marvel heroes.

[37:27] And at 9, we'll be talking Spice World.

[37:31] We're going to stop right there.

[37:33] Thank you very much.

[37:35] And discuss Spice World.

[37:38] If you're interested in tickets for those or any of the shows, the one I previously mentioned or the one I'm about to, you can go to flophousepodcast.com slash events and look into that.

[37:49] Yes, there's another show to plug.

[37:51] It is live in Boston.

[37:52] It is on July 26th.

[37:54] So you've got a lot of time.

[37:56] But, you know, don't delay.

[37:58] Why not do it while you're thinking about it?

[38:00] We'll be at WBUR City Space.

[38:04] Movie, TBD.

[38:06] But we had a great time at City Space before in Boston.

[38:09] A great show.

[38:10] Stuart almost killed me with a presentation about cars.

[38:14] Can he reach those heights again?

[38:16] Perhaps.

[38:16] We'll see.

[38:18] And if you're interested in any of these shows, again, just go to flophousepodcast.com slash events.

[38:25] But now, back to the show.

[38:31] We're back.

[38:33] Since we're a bad movie show, I wanted to spend the second.

[38:36] Well, we're a good show about bad movies, right, guys?

[38:39] You were just telling me how you needed to get out of here at a particular time.

[38:43] I wanted to spend the second half of the show on their Dog of the Week segment.

[38:49] Siskel and Ebert were not above some goofy stagecraft, especially early on in the series.

[38:56] And they would have an actual dog, Spot the Wonder Dog, and they would highlight a movie they thought was terrible.

Elliott Kalan

[39:04] I like the idea that they were like, it's a new show.

[39:06] Maybe it stays about movies.

[39:08] Maybe it becomes a show about dogs.

[39:09] We don't know.

Dan McCoy

[39:10] Who knows?

[39:13] Yeah, go on.

Matt Singer

[39:14] Sorry.

[39:14] No.

[39:15] I mean, this is one of the fun things that people who've only seen the later episodes might not realize.

[39:22] And I knew about the Dog of the Week, but until you really watch it, you don't.

[39:30] First of all, there was multiple dogs.

[39:33] There were, to my knowledge, there were three different dogs.

[39:36] They replaced dogs whenever they felt like it.

[39:39] There was Spot the Wonder Dog.

[39:40] There was Zeke the Wonder Dog.

[39:42] And there's one other one.

[39:44] And then when they went into, that was at PBS, the original incarnation of the show.

[39:47] Then when they went to PBS, they were worried if they brought the dog with them, they'd get sued.

[39:50] So then it became the stinker of the week.

[39:54] And they had a skunk on the set with them.

[39:56] Literally, Aroma the Educated Skunk was sitting next to them in the balcony.

[40:03] And I could tell you stories about the skunk if you want.

[40:05] Then eventually, they got sick of the skunk because they're sitting next to a skunk, for God's sakes.

[40:14] And they told their executive producer, we don't like the skunk.

[40:18] The skunk, we're done.

[40:19] We're better than this.

[40:21] Aren't we, essentially?

[40:23] Yeah.

[40:23] And they convinced the producer, let's get rid of the skunk.

[40:26] And then the producer came to them and said, boys, I got a great idea.

[40:31] And they were like, well, what do you want us to do now?

[40:34] He's like, all right, you didn't like the skunk of the week.

[40:36] But what about the turkey of the week?

[40:39] And they said, oh, God, you want us to be in the balcony with a turkey?

[40:44] He said, no, no, no, no, no.

[40:46] A turkey vulture.

[40:48] Oh, God.

Dan McCoy

[40:50] Yeah, something more dangerous, please.

Matt Singer

[40:51] Yes, exactly.

[40:52] So anyway, and that was the end of all the weeks.

[40:57] But yes, the thing that's amazing about them is that this, on the flip side of, well, if you watch these old episodes, you'll see they're doing actually pretty high-level criticism.

[41:09] If you watch the episodes where they do Dog of the Week, it's like watching the origins of Mystery Science Theater 3000.

[41:15] They're not doing criticism.

[41:16] They're just, these movies are there to be teed up to make jokes.

[41:19] And they're watching them on a screen, and they're sitting in a theater.

[41:22] It actually feels a little like Mystery Science Theater 3000.

[41:26] I've never asked.

[41:27] I would love to know if, like, you know, the people involved in the origins of MSC3K, if that was in the back of their minds at all.

[41:37] I don't think we know anybody who knows Jules.

[41:39] We don't know anybody.

[41:40] No way to find out.

[41:41] Yeah, we have no access to those people.

[41:44] They don't know those people.

[41:44] Not familiar with them.

[41:45] Don't know the show you're talking about.

[41:46] Yeah, but it's something I have wondered about, and it is fun to go back and watch.

Elliott Kalan

[41:51] I should ask him about that.

[41:52] He always would say that he was inspired by an image in an Elton John album cover.

[41:59] There's an image of a silhouette of people sitting in front of a screen for the song, I've seen that movie too, or whatever it's called.

[42:05] And he always said he was inspired by that, but I wonder.

[42:07] I'll have to ask him sometime.

Matt Singer

[42:09] I mean, I'm not going, like, obviously they stole Siskel and Ebert.

Elliott Kalan

[42:13] No, no, that's how I'm going to present it to him.

[42:15] Yeah, you should.

[42:15] You should.

[42:15] Please do.

[42:15] He's accusing you of stealing.

Matt Singer

[42:16] Yes, I've accused him of plagiarism.

[42:18] It's just interesting.

[42:19] I mean, maybe I, because these are literally the two shows that so, like, infected my brain when I was 12 years old, was Siskel and Ebert Mystery Science Seer.

[42:27] They were, like, the things I was obsessed with, that now I can't, I see one and I see the other.

[42:32] But I'm telling you, they're not sitting there going, yes, this is a treatise on, you know, the lost innocence of man.

[42:42] They're going, look at this stupid movie.

[42:43] Look at how silly they look.

[42:45] They're cracking jokes the whole time, and they're cutting to the, you know, them in the theater looking at the movie on the screen.

[42:51] You go, well, that's kind of interesting.

[42:52] It's sort of, you know, the prehistory of that sort of thing.

[42:56] Just something kind of interesting.

Dan McCoy

[42:57] This bit is halfway to a game, halfway just chatting about some movies.

[43:05] All right.

[43:06] I'm going to talk about a few Dog of the Week movies here.

[43:11] I'm going to ignore the ones that they're obviously wrong about, like The Brood or Ms. 45.

[43:17] I mean, The Brood is fine.

[43:19] It's no Dog of the Week.

[43:22] It's not a Dog of the Week.

Matt Singer

[43:23] Compared to the level of most Dogs of the Week, it's not a Dog of the Week.

Dan McCoy

[43:26] That's fair.

[43:27] I like The Brood a lot.

[43:28] Anyway, so I've got some titles.

[43:31] For each one, I'm going to ask two questions.

[43:34] One, can you tell me anything about this movie?

[43:36] This probably will mostly be for Matt, who will see whether he retained these Dog of the Week segments.

[43:42] Right.

[43:42] And two, do you think the public agreed with Siskel and Ebert?

[43:46] For the purposes of this, if the IMDb rating average from users is below five, they agree it's a Dog of the Week.

[43:55] But if it's above five, it's not quite dog level.

[43:58] So, first one I got here is The Island of the Fishmen from 1979.

Elliott Kalan

[44:05] So, this is the kind of movie that nowadays I feel like a critic would not bother to cover.

[44:09] Yeah.

[44:09] This is the difference I'm talking about.

[44:11] Yeah.

Dan McCoy

[44:12] Yeah.

[44:12] Anyone know anything about Island of the Fishmen?

[44:14] Matt?

[44:15] It's a great name.

[44:16] It is a great name.

Matt Singer

[44:16] It's an evocative title, if nothing else.

[44:19] I'm looking.

[44:19] Yeah.

[44:20] So, I'm looking in my notes from this period.

[44:24] Cheating?

[44:25] I am full on cheating.

[44:26] Well, I'm curious if there was anything notable from any of these reviews.

[44:30] Yeah.

[44:30] And this one, I don't even have in my notes.

[44:32] So, perhaps I didn't even find this episode when I was looking and watching them.

[44:38] A scoop for the paperback, the updated edition.

[44:40] Yeah.

[44:40] I did keep track of, you know, every episode I watched, I took very copious notes of each movie, the dogs of the week, the votes on each movie, and any notable stuff that happened, I would write down.

[44:53] But this one isn't even in my notes.

[44:55] That's how obscure this one is.

Dan McCoy

[44:58] Before I tell you just a little bit about it, would you say it's a dog or not a dog in the eyes of the IMDb voting public?

[45:06] I would guess that it is a dog.

Elliott Kalan

[45:09] I'm going to say if the IMDb voting public is voting on this movie, they are the kind of person who would like a movie called Island of the Fishman.

[45:16] So, I'm going to say not a dog.

Dan McCoy

[45:17] Good point.

[45:19] You know, between you guys, Stuart, if you want to land, you can, but you seem…

Elliott Kalan

[45:25] I was checking the IMDb page.

Dan McCoy

[45:27] Okay.

[45:29] Another cheater.

[45:30] I'm the only one playing fair.

[45:31] This one is not a dog, just barely at 5.3.

[45:34] It's about a prison ship that sinks in the Caribbean and prisoners and a doctor wash ashore where they discover a strange couple who invite them to stay at their house.

[45:45] And apparently the doctor does a little investigation, finds out what the pair is up to and why prisoners keep disappearing mysteriously.

[45:54] I'm guessing it has something to do with Fishman.

[45:56] Yeah.

[45:57] That's, I mean, put money on Fishman.

[45:59] Unless the doctor's name is…

Elliott Kalan

[46:00] That's your classic Fishman scenario.

[46:01] The doctors could be named Dr. Fishman.

Dan McCoy

[46:04] Yeah, yeah.

[46:05] A little IMDb trivia, future director, and then head of publicity and marketing for New World Pictures, Jim Wynorski, came up with a title change and did a little additional filming so they could release this as Screamers in the U.S.

[46:20] Let's keep with the island theme.

[46:23] There's Frankenstein Island from 1981.

[46:27] Do you recall anything about this film?

[46:30] Frankenstein Island.

[46:32] I don't.

Matt Singer

[46:32] But now that you mentioned the other movie was Screamers, I do have that in my notes.

[46:36] And I can tell you Screamers was reviewed as the dog of the week on the episode where Siskel and Ebert reviewed Raiders of the Lost Ark.

[46:43] Oh, wow.

[46:44] They liked Raiders more than Screamers?

[46:47] Hard to believe.

[46:48] Amazing.

[46:49] Did they like Raiders of the Lost Ark?

[46:50] They did.

[46:51] They did.

[46:51] They gave it two, well, in those days it was not thumbs.

[46:54] The thumbs had not been invented yet.

[46:56] But they gave it two yes votes in the early days of the show.

[47:01] Not as catchy?

[47:02] Everything got a yes or a no.

[47:05] Yes, not nearly as catchy.

Stuart Wellington

[47:08] Frankenstein Island sounds like one of the Hotel Transylvania sequels.

[47:12] Yeah, for sure it does.

Elliott Kalan

[47:13] The one they wear they go on vacation, yeah.

Matt Singer

[47:15] Yeah.

[47:16] I don't know anything about it, but I can tell you I'm looking at my notes now.

[47:20] And this was an Ebert dog of the week.

[47:23] Sometimes they would both have a different dog of the week on an episode.

[47:27] They were both seeing so much crap.

[47:29] They would often each have their own movie.

Dan McCoy

[47:32] Double dog day.

[47:33] Yes.

[47:33] Up or down vote?

[47:34] Dog or no dog?

[47:37] Matt.

[47:37] I vote dog.

[47:38] I'm going to be voting.

[47:39] I'm going to probably be voting straight dog most of these.

[47:41] Stewart.

[47:41] Dog.

[47:41] Yeah, I'm straight dog.

[47:43] Let's make it three.

[47:44] Dog.

[47:45] This is a dog.

[47:46] This has 2.0, the lowest score of the bunch.

[47:49] Despite, listen to this.

[47:52] When a hot air balloon already crashed.

[47:56] No bad news about it.

Elliott Kalan

[47:57] Was it Ebert who said there's no good movies with hot air balloons in there?

[48:01] Oh, yeah.

Matt Singer

[48:01] That was one of Ebert's, like, his rules.

[48:04] He has that, like, little movie glossary that he was, you know.

Elliott Kalan

[48:07] Which is crazy since The Wizard of Oz is maybe the greatest movie of all time.

[48:11] And then you got Great Muppet Caper.

Dan McCoy

[48:14] That's a good one with a hot air balloon.

[48:16] Yeah.

[48:17] Anyway, the denizens of this hot air balloon discover Dr. Frankenstein's ancestor carrying on the family work.

[48:24] Carrying on as an ancestor?

[48:25] Yeah.

[48:26] That seems to be miswritten, whoever wrote that.

[48:27] Yeah.

[48:28] Along with a race of mutants and population of Amazons.

[48:31] Trivia.

[48:33] John Carradine only appears as a floating image during the whole film.

[48:37] It's the same shot of him all the time.

[48:40] Sometimes repeating dialogue and sometimes with new dialogue.

[48:44] Wow.

[48:46] Let's race on to this movie Dirt from 1979.

[48:51] Do you remember anything about Dirt?

Matt Singer

[48:54] Dirt.

[48:55] I don't remember anything on Dirt.

[48:59] There's also Dirty Tricks was a different Dirt-related Dog of the Week.

[49:05] Ah, here we go.

[49:06] Dirt.

[49:07] This was also an Ebert Dog of the Week.

[49:10] Siskel had his own separate dog.

[49:13] I could tell you.

[49:13] I don't know if that's also on your list.

[49:15] I don't want to spoil it.

[49:17] No, tell us.

[49:17] Tell us.

[49:18] Ruined Dance Game.

[49:18] What was Siskel's Dog of the Week?

[49:19] Siskel's Dog of the Week that week was named Demonoid.

[49:24] That feels like a title that should be followed by Rated R.

Dan McCoy

[49:30] I think I'd like that.

Elliott Kalan

[49:31] He's playing at your cousin's house when his parents go to sleep.

Dan McCoy

[49:35] Would you call this what now?

[49:36] In the eyes of the public, dog or not a dog?

[49:39] Elliot, I'm going to go to you first.

[49:40] Was it called Dirt?

Elliott Kalan

[49:41] Dirt.

[49:42] I'm going to say dog also on this one.

[49:44] I could be wrong, but I'll say dog also.

Stuart Wellington

[49:46] Well, I like the movie Mud.

Elliott Kalan

[49:51] Presumably, this is a prequel.

[49:53] Yeah.

[49:54] Mud's a pretty wet movie, so I guess before they went to the swamps, yeah, it's just dirt.

Dan McCoy

[49:57] Yeah, I'll say this is a dog.

Matt Singer

[50:00] I'm going to say not a dog.

[50:03] Wow.

Dan McCoy

[50:04] Matt, your iconoclasm has paid off because this has the highest score of the bunch with a 6.8.

[50:09] Wow.

[50:11] I'll tell you, this is apparently a documentary.

[50:13] Wow.

[50:14] The footage is from between 76 and 78 about varied types of off-road competition through the U.S. and Baja California.

[50:24] There's no trivia for this, but the soundtrack lists the songs Snow Climb, Swamp Buggy, and Jeep Ridge Runners.

[50:33] All right.

Matt Singer

[50:34] I have some fun trivia for you.

[50:36] Are you ready?

[50:37] I'm looking at my notes now.

[50:38] Yeah, yeah.

Matt Singer

[50:38] Drop it on.

[50:39] This dog of the week appears on an extremely notable episode of not Siskel and Ebert, but sneak previews at the time.

[50:47] It is the same episode where they reviewed Gates of Heaven, which became a really big movie as a result of their review.

[50:57] I actually spoke to Errol Morris for my book, and he credited them with this review, and then they kept bringing it up on episode after episode.

[51:05] He literally said they gave me a career by talking about my movie Gates of Heaven.

[51:10] So same episode, and a little more, they also reviewed Escape from New York on this episode, but that did not get two thumbs or two yeses up.

[51:21] One of the two men gave it a no vote.

[51:25] Would you care to guess?

[51:26] I'm now hijacking your game with my own game.

[51:28] Wow.

[51:28] Oh, man.

[51:29] Would you care to guess?

[51:31] Siskel or Ebert, who gave Escape from New York, the immortal classic, a no vote?

Stuart Wellington

[51:38] Ebert famously gave The Thing a bad review.

[51:43] Yeah.

[51:43] So I'm going to guess that Ebert also didn't like Escape from New York.

[51:47] I agree.

[51:49] I'm going to say Siskel.

Dan McCoy

[51:51] You know, Ebert, I think he had a bit of a blind spot for Carpenter, even though he liked Halloween.

Matt Singer

[51:55] The correct answer, the host that gave it a no vote, is Roger Ebert.

[52:01] Oh.

Elliott Kalan

[52:02] That Errol Morris—

[52:04] Sorry, go on.

[52:05] It's funny to me.

[52:06] I feel like as Roger Ebert got older, he got softer on that type of movie.

[52:10] Yeah.

[52:10] But near the end of his career, there was a Gamera movie.

[52:14] And a lot of his review is about, you know, when you're young, you like movies that are well-made.

[52:19] Like a movie like Air Force One.

[52:21] And then you get older and you want to see movies that have, like, show you things you're not going to see.

[52:25] And you kind of get tired of movies like Air Force One.

[52:27] And it's like a—

[52:28] Yeah.

Elliott Kalan

[52:29] I always found that to be a really memorable reveal.

[52:32] Yeah.

[52:32] Where he's basically saying, like, my taste has changed somewhat.

[52:35] And I prized different things about movies than I maybe once did.

[52:38] So maybe he came around to Escape from New York someday.

[52:41] Maybe.

Dan McCoy

[52:42] And that Errol Morris story just made me think, like, I feel like people who don't like film criticism, like, there are people who are just like, oh, it's, you know, it's people, like, wanting to ruin the fun.

[52:55] Like, want to, like, snooty people.

Stuart Wellington

[52:57] Or like Matt, who's a Marvel shill, right?

Dan McCoy

[52:59] Yeah.

[53:00] Like, snooty people or shills.

[53:02] Or like, yeah.

[53:02] Like, there's all this kind of negativity.

[53:04] And I feel like what we've lost in having influential film critics is people who will champion good movies and actually, like, move the needle on them and, like, help sort of the art.

[53:17] Well, luckily we have Dan's Letterboxd for that.

[53:20] Thank you.

Elliott Kalan

[53:22] I'll champion some bullshit from 1983.

[53:27] Dan's Letterboxd is like, four stars.

[53:30] Cheeky, directed by Tinto Grass.

[53:32] Really gets it what it's like to have a butt.

[53:35] Yeah.

Dan McCoy

[53:37] It's truth in art.

[53:40] Let's, we have two more of these.

[53:42] Let's get through them so we can get everyone out the door.

[53:44] Dan will text me.

Elliott Kalan

[53:44] He's like, I just watched this movie.

[53:45] I did not like it.

[53:46] Here's my Letterboxd review.

[53:48] Three and a half stars.

Dan McCoy

[53:52] I may not like it, but goddammit, I respect it.

[53:54] Anyway, the next one.

[53:57] The Vampire's Night Orgy from 1973.

Elliott Kalan

[54:01] Speaking of butts.

[54:02] It feels like night is unnecessary there.

[54:05] A vampire is going to do everything at night, especially an orgy.

Stuart Wellington

[54:07] The Day Orgy was the original one.

[54:09] This is the sequel.

Matt Singer

[54:11] This one's not in my notes either.

[54:13] I wonder if it has an alternate title like Screamers did because it's not coming up.

Dan McCoy

[54:18] Well, we'll get into an alternate version.

[54:20] It's also known as Network.

[54:22] Yeah.

[54:27] So I'm just going to, you know, in the interest of actually moving us along, I'll say this

[54:32] is a dog with a score of 4.8 from the public.

[54:36] Close.

[54:37] Not bad.

Matt Singer

[54:38] That's pretty respectable.

[54:39] Yeah.

Dan McCoy

[54:40] Something about that orgy was a letdown.

Matt Singer

[54:43] If it had been a daytime orgy, boring.

[54:46] The fact that it was a nighttime orgy, that was what really appealed.

[54:49] Well, maybe.

Elliott Kalan

[54:49] I feel like it's hard to get a higher score than that when your movie has the word orgy

[54:53] in the title.

Dan McCoy

[54:54] Well, I wanted to say I'm surprised.

[54:56] I was looking at a list of these.

[54:57] I'm surprised at how many horny sounding movies ended up on Dog of the Week knowing how horny

[55:04] Roger Ebert was and how cheerfully open he was about that fact.

Elliott Kalan

[55:09] Look, when he did his job, he took off his pervert hat and put on his reviewer hat.

Dan McCoy

[55:15] Yes.

[55:16] Well, all I know about this is the IMDb plot says a busload of tourists stops in to visit

[55:21] a small European town.

[55:23] What they don't know is the town is completely inhabited by vampires.

[55:26] Sounds pretty standard.

[55:29] But from the alternate version section, it says, this film, like many Spanish films from

[55:35] the late 60s to the end of the Franco era, shot its racy scenes twice, once with the actors

[55:41] nude and then again with clothes on.

[55:43] The covered versions mostly appeared in Spanish prints, but not always.

[55:46] The nude scenes would be included in the dubbed versions that were offered for sale elsewhere.

[55:51] This film has three scenes where the actresses are nude and these appear in an English dub

[55:55] print retitled Orgy of the Vampires.

[55:58] So they moved the orgy, I guess, to the front of the title.

[56:02] Yeah, yeah.

[56:02] To really emphasize the important.

[56:06] And on a similar note, we'll close out this whole shebang, this whole weird deal with

[56:12] a movie called The Kinky Coaches and the Pom Pom Pussycats from 1981.

Elliott Kalan

[56:19] It is amazing to me that this is a movie that they reviewed at all.

Matt Singer

[56:25] Okay, so this I have in my notes.

[56:27] This one I do have in my notes.

[56:29] Yeah.

[56:30] Siskel.

[56:30] This was a Siskel Dog of the Week.

[56:32] And I actually wrote down a quote from his review.

[56:35] Here, this is from Gene's Dog of the Week comments on this film.

[56:39] Quote, also, there's very little nudity in the movie.

[56:44] That's disappointing.

Dan McCoy

[56:46] Yeah.

[56:46] I mean, with that title.

Matt Singer

[56:49] Yes, if you're going to see The Kinky Coaches and the Pom Pom Pussycats, I mean, look.

Dan McCoy

[56:53] I will say it does have, it is also known by the less intriguing title, Heartbreak High,

[56:58] which is wildly generic after The Kinky Coaches and the Pom Pom Pussycats.

Stuart Wellington

[57:03] I think that's an Australian sitcom, like, euphoria-style show on Netflix right now.

[57:10] Yeah.

Matt Singer

[57:12] Ebert's Dog of the Week on this episode was called

[57:15] the much less excitingly titled

[57:17] A Hard Way to Die.

Stuart Wellington

[57:20] Rated R.

[57:22] I mean, that's a, I don't know, that's a,

[57:24] I want to know what that hard way to die is.

Elliott Kalan

[57:26] What if it's about, like, prostate cancer, though?

[57:28] Like, it's a really sad movie about a brain.

Stuart Wellington

[57:30] Yeah, it's a Mike Lee movie.

Dan McCoy

[57:35] On this film, I just want to note,

[57:38] it's, you know, plot-wise, it's a football sex comedy,

[57:41] but the top three billed actors are not who you would necessarily expect from a movie called

[57:48] The Kinky Coaches and the Pom Pom Pussycats.

[57:50] Laurence Olivier.

[57:51] And those are John Vernon, Norman Fell, and Robert Forster.

[57:55] So, there you go.

[57:58] Three.

[57:59] Wow.

Elliott Kalan

[58:01] I can see them playing teachers and coaches in a, in a, in a sex game movie.

[58:05] I guess, I guess part of it is, like, I'm imagining them.

[58:07] They play the Pom Pom Pussycats.

Dan McCoy

[58:08] That's the thing.

[58:10] That's the surprise.

[58:11] I am imagining them as older men, I think, is part of the problem, as I mostly knew them.

[58:16] But, um, before we go.

Elliott Kalan

[58:19] Oh, no, this was when they were young bucks.

[58:21] Yeah, they were just real, real hot, hot hunks.

Dan McCoy

[58:23] Chasing around Pom Pom Pussycats.

[58:26] Before we go, you know, obviously we focused a lot on bad movies, but I wanted to end on a positive note because Siskel Liebert, as we said, championed a lot of movies.

[58:36] You close your book with an appendix that's really nice where you, you highlight some buried treasures, 25 movies that are more forgotten these days, but got two thumbs up from Siskel Liebert.

[58:48] And I wondered if you might pick, you know, just one dimension off the top of your head that, and then, you know, people can go buy the goddamn thing if they want to know more.

Matt Singer

[59:00] Yes.

[59:01] Yeah, that, that's sort of, that was, that, that idea was kind of, like, the, um, my attempt because it is a book about film critics.

[59:07] And, you know, like, it is fun to watch them just make fun of these terrible movies, and I enjoy that too.

[59:16] But, uh, you know, like, I also was inspired to, like, be a film critic by the show, and it really introduced me to a lot of stuff and, uh, to the idea of film criticism as a thing in the first place.

[59:25] So I definitely wanted to put a little, at least film advocacy in the book, and that was what inspired, yeah, this appendix that has these 25 movies.

[59:34] Um, as you said, it's all, it's all, like, movies that got two thumbs up or two yes votes in the early days, but, um, they're not the gates of heavens or the do the right things or those kind of movies.

[59:47] Um, I'm, I'm thinking of, like, one that I should recommend because I've seen it having, like, revival screenings for the first time in a really long time is this movie Household Saints.

[59:57] Um, I think it played the New York Film Festival last fall in, like, a revival screening, and I've been seeing it kind of popping up in art houses and different places.

[1:00:07] I think it might be playing at the Jacob Berms Film Center, um, this month in May.

[1:00:13] I'm not sure when this will, this podcast will come out, but I'm pretty sure it's, it's part of this, like, festival that they're doing of, like, restored, recently restored movies.

[1:00:21] And I think they're even showing a documentary about the making of it.

[1:00:24] Um, but for a long time, this movie, like, it was shown and it got good reviews.

[1:00:29] So, Sklenieberg gave it two very enthusiastic thumbs up.

[1:00:32] Um, uh, and it, and then it kind of faded away.

[1:00:36] And it, for a long time, you couldn't find it.

[1:00:39] It might have come out on VHS, maybe, but it, like, never got released even on DVD.

[1:00:43] And, uh, you had to, like, really track it down.

[1:00:46] And it's this really, it has, if you look up the IMDb page, it has all these great actors in it.

[1:00:51] Um, a lot of New York actors, people from The Sopranos you might recognize are in there.

[1:00:57] And it's a movie about sort of, it's sort of like a cross between, like, a 90s indie drama mixed with, like, a film about religion and spirituality and faith.

[1:01:07] Which is something that isn't always in those movies, which are a lot more, like, you know, like, I think of that period a lot more, like, Tarantino-y knockoffs.

Elliott Kalan

[1:01:16] More like a boondock Saints than a housewives.

Matt Singer

[1:01:18] Yeah, yeah, it's all attitude and people, you know, a lot of profanity.

[1:01:23] And, you know, I like a lot of those movies, too.

[1:01:26] But, um, this is something that's a little different from that period.

[1:01:30] And, um, this was the, I think, probably of the 25 movies that are in there, this or there's, like, one or two other candidates were, like, um,

[1:01:37] my favorite of all those movies.

[1:01:40] I, everything that's in the appendix, I went out of my way to watch.

[1:01:42] So it's all things they liked.

[1:01:44] But there's some things that they liked that I don't like and I wasn't going to put it in the book.

[1:01:48] It all had to be, it had to make it through my filter, too.

[1:01:51] And of all those movies, um, this was, I thought, like, one of the biggest, like, blow-away surprises where I was like, wow, this is one of the best, like, 90s movies that I've seen.

[1:02:00] And it, when I wrote the book, when I did the appendix, I had no idea that it was about to be restored.

[1:02:06] And now it's playing in some theaters.

[1:02:08] And I hope that means within the next year or two, it'll be out on some form, either on streaming or on home video.

[1:02:15] So that's one that I would absolutely, um, recommend.

[1:02:19] Like, Household Saints, keep your eyes peeled if it pops up at your local art house.

[1:02:23] Yeah.

[1:02:23] It does get a release on Blu-ray.

[1:02:25] Vinegar Syndrome.

[1:02:27] Vinegar Syndrome.

[1:02:28] Release a DVD.

[1:02:29] Yeah, paging Vinegar Syndrome or one of those labels.

[1:02:32] Something weird is going to release.

[1:02:34] Yeah, we need one of those.

[1:02:35] So that is, that's one, I mean, I could give you more if we have time or if you want, but that would, that's the first one that jumps out at me.

Dan McCoy

[1:02:43] Cool.

[1:02:43] Uh, I think we got to close up the balcony.

[1:02:47] But.

[1:02:48] Oh, he was sitting on that shit.

Matt Singer

[1:02:49] As they famously said on the show, well, we've got to close up the balcony.

[1:02:53] Well, we've got to close up the balcony.

[1:02:54] And then they'd sweep up the spotlight.

Elliott Kalan

[1:02:56] Yes.

[1:02:56] And then they locked the doors.

[1:02:59] Uh, but.

[1:02:59] And that's when the movies would come to life, when no one was around.

Dan McCoy

[1:03:03] But, uh, thank you, Matt, for, uh, coming on the show and talking with us and for writing a book I really enjoyed and, and everyone listening should read.

[1:03:14] Um, uh, before we sign off, I want to say thank you to our producer, Alex Smith.

[1:03:21] Check him out on the internet.

[1:03:22] He goes by Howell Dottie, most places there.

[1:03:25] He's got his own projects.

[1:03:27] You should see, uh, maximumfund.org.

[1:03:31] That is where you go for other podcasts on our network, Maximum Fun.

[1:03:35] Uh, check those out.

[1:03:37] But, for this Flophouse Mini, I will say goodbye.

[1:03:41] My name has been Dan McCoy.

Elliott Kalan

[1:03:44] I'm Stuart Wellington.

[1:03:46] I've been Elliot Kalin and remain that same person.

[1:03:49] And we've been joined by...

Matt Singer

[1:03:51] The Scargiver!

[1:03:52] I'm Matt Singer!

[1:03:53] Oh, I did it again!

[1:03:53] Oh!

[1:03:55] Matt Singer!

[1:03:56] The, comma, The Scargiver.

Stuart Wellington

[1:03:58] Oh, sick.

FH Mini 103 - Siskel & Ebert, with Matt Singer

Transcript

In this episode

Description